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> However, people are adopting ever more extreme, ascetic, and unhealthy versions of this fasting, based on misconceptions about how dopamine works in our brain

> However, people are adopting ever more extreme, ascetic, and unhealthy versions of this fasting, based on misconceptions about how dopamine works in our brains. They are not eating, exercising, listening to music, socializing, talking more than necessary, and not allowing themselves to be photographed if there’s a flash (not sure if this applies to selfies). Just one of the wild, reference-free claims [1] the article makes. Who are these legions of people? The few articles I have been able to find about it [2][3] indicate that it's Silicon Valley "trying things out" as usual, and assorted media loudly claiming that it doesn't work. As such, the backlash against this is the most interesting part to me. Is dopamine fasting enough of a blow to the business model of traditional media outlets that they have decided to snowball it with a series of strawman attacks just in case anyone takes it seriously and decides to try it out? It seems like a harmless form of standard Buddhist-style meditation practices to me, that seek to minimize desire. ---------------------------------------- [1] I wonder how much of a "pass" an article unnecessarily gets on basic things like data and references just because it happens to on a Harvard Medical School domain. [2] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/11/13/20959424/dopamine-fasting-silicon-valley-trend-neuroscience https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/11/13/20959424/dopam... [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/style/dopamine-fasting.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/07/style/dopamine-fasting.ht...

emodendroket 5y ago
I read the article and I really have no idea where you’re drawing such invidious conclusions, especially when the concept of “dopamine fasting” seems to extend far beyond social media.
mgraczyk 5y ago
Given the structure of the article, and the fact that its only two outbound links are shilling for a particular kind of dopamine fast, I'd say this article is just PR for the therapist they are "interviewing".
akeck 5y ago
Not sure if it applies in this case, but marketers and influencers have discovered that if they sign up for Harvard extension classes, they can publish blog articles and do email with the harvard.edu domain. I think WBUR did an article on the issue.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  The author appears to be a doctor whose primary area of interest is addiction, including behavioral addiction: https://www.health.harvard.edu/author/peter-grinspoon-md https://www.health.harvard.edu/author/peter-grinspoon-md
  - mattkrause 5y ago
    A doctor at Mass General, which is one of Harvard's teaching hospitals. He's also an instructor at Harvard Med, so his claim to a Harvard affiliation seems about as solid as can be.
    - HuShifang 5y ago
      And, as an aside, brother to the planetary scientist David Grinspoon.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grinspoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grinspoon EDIT: Peter has his own Wikipedia page too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Grinspoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Grinspoon
    - quadrifoliate 5y ago
      None of which should make them exempt from citing some kind of source, or using fewer superlatives in writing. "We have recently seen some patients who told us they were dopamine fasting..." would have been fine.
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        Perhaps not but the claim that this article is the work of marketers scamming their way onto the Harvard domain is bogus.
otabdeveloper4 5y ago
> They are not eating, exercising, listening to music, socializing, talking more than necessary, and not allowing themselves to be photographed if there’s a flash This is the standard asceticism routine that every human religion in history followed. (And follows.) I'll trust the weight of centuries of experience over some random internet source.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Barrin92 5y ago
  religions have also practiced the punishment of homosexuals and atheists for thousands of years, and doctors have practiced bloodletting for ages. A lot of the standard stuff we've been doing for thousands of years turns out to be pretty terrible the random internet source in this case happens to be harvard medical laying out basic facts about how dopamine works in the human brain and why you can't actually 'fast' it.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    Bloodletting has been shown to be effective treatment for some disorders (phlebotomy), even leeches are still used in modern times.
  - wincy 5y ago
    Harvard Medical also extols the virtues of a low fat diet, and managing your cholesterol with statins, both of which aren’t particularly helpful at reducing your mortality.
    - Barrin92 5y ago
      yes, sometimes established medicine gets things wrong. But we do agree that if you experience chest pain tomorrow you consult the harvard trained cardiologist and not a witch doctor, priest or traditional chinese medicine, correct? General point being, if you weigh "weights of centuries" higher than modern expertise, you would still believe that night air is dangerous and your four humors are out of balance instead of believing in germs. The chance that anyone who posts on HN actually treats their illnesses with ancient religious practice is, I'd wager, very low. And that tells you all there is to it.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>>They are not eating, exercising, listening to music, socializing, talking more than necessary, and not allowing themselves to be photographed if there’s a flash >Who are these legions of people? parents of new born twins.
- touisteur 5y ago
  Oh. Those first 6 months were brutal AF indeed. Thank god for breastfeeding and sleep-deprivation resilience...
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Who are these legions of people? The few articles I have been able to find about it [2][3] indicate that it's Silicon Valley "trying things out" as usual, and assorted media loudly claiming that it doesn't work. It's not legions of people, but "dopamine fasting" was (briefly) popular in certain social media and tech circles. It started out as a "put down your phone and go outside" kind of trend with a pseudoscientific tie-in to dopamine (or at least the popular misconceptions about dopamine). Aside from egregiously abusing neuroscience terms, it was actually a decent idea to encourage people to take a break from the easy rewards like social media, video games, and TV. Probably feels like a revelation to people who were chronically online and forgot that there was an alternative way to live. But then it spiraled into a fad where social media personalities tried to one-up each other or rush to add their own pseudoscientific twists in an attempt to have something new and unique to share. And it evolved into this silly idea that you shouldn't do anything enjoyable during your off time, or even that you had to specifically become uncomfortable or miserable. Outside of those circles, everyone else is just rolling their eyes. But get caught in one of these bubbles and you'll hear a lot of one-upmanship about dopamine fasting and humble brags about not doing certain things. At least until it becomes uncool again, at which point everyone will pretend it never happened. This article probably sounds like nonsense if you haven't been in one of these circles, but it's actually a great resource to give to someone before they go down the "dopamine fasting" rabbit hole. Debunk early and save them the trouble. Moderation is good. Putting down your phone and going outside is good. Having self-discipline is good. But turning it into a status-signaling social media game and applying a pseudoscientific name is a good way to completely miss the point. Just go outside and enjoy yourself.
- throwaway2331 5y ago
  I remember first seeing it a long time ago on a 4chan thread.[0] For what it's worth, it's been pretty useful for treating maladaptive ADHD habits/hyperfocusing on the wrong things. It has been pretty useful for tweaking my habits, and making me aware that I'm able to actually change them (rather than fall into learned helplessness). I think most people forget that you have to break a fast, at the end of it. Hopefully this time slowly easing into a new, healthier diet regimen. [0]https://test.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/fit/image/1519/35/1519356540254.png https://test.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/fit/image/1519/35...
rgrieselhuber 5y ago
A phrase that I heard once has stuck with me: "Metacognition is the key to self-mastery. The limbic system is how those who perceive themselves to be our betters attempt to gain control over us." With this in mind, I agree fully with your statement on the backlash.
novok 5y ago
> Just one of the wild, reference-free claims [1] the article makes. Who are these legions of people? Mental health professionals might have started encountering this kind of person at the end of their attempts of acting this way, and then started talking about it with each other. Other patients are probably reference the misconstrued influencer articles about "dopamine fasting" in therapy sessions. They can't really tell you real numbers because it would break mental health privacy laws. Hell they might of wrote this mostly to show patients as a reference material. Also the article doesn't make any assertions about the amount of people doing it (your "legions"), just that some people are.
- quadrifoliate 5y ago
  > Also the article doesn't make any assertions about the amount of people doing it (your "legions"), just that some people are. I literally took the word "legions" from the article. You can find it by searching the article text for that word, finding this line: > Unfortunately, legions of people have misinterpreted the science, as well as the entire concept of a dopamine fast.

emodendroket 5y ago

I read the article and I really have no idea where you’re drawing such invidious conclusions, especially when the concept of “dopamine fasting” seems to extend far beyond social media.

mgraczyk 5y ago

Given the structure of the article, and the fact that its only two outbound links are shilling for a particular kind of dopamine fast, I'd say this article is just PR for the therapist they are "interviewing".

akeck 5y ago

Not sure if it applies in this case, but marketers and influencers have discovered that if they sign up for Harvard extension classes, they can publish blog articles and do email with the harvard.edu domain. I think WBUR did an article on the issue.

emodendroket 5y ago
The author appears to be a doctor whose primary area of interest is addiction, including behavioral addiction: https://www.health.harvard.edu/author/peter-grinspoon-md https://www.health.harvard.edu/author/peter-grinspoon-md
- mattkrause 5y ago
  A doctor at Mass General, which is one of Harvard's teaching hospitals. He's also an instructor at Harvard Med, so his claim to a Harvard affiliation seems about as solid as can be.
  - HuShifang 5y ago
    And, as an aside, brother to the planetary scientist David Grinspoon.[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grinspoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Grinspoon EDIT: Peter has his own Wikipedia page too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Grinspoon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Grinspoon
  - quadrifoliate 5y ago
    None of which should make them exempt from citing some kind of source, or using fewer superlatives in writing. "We have recently seen some patients who told us they were dopamine fasting..." would have been fine.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Perhaps not but the claim that this article is the work of marketers scamming their way onto the Harvard domain is bogus.

otabdeveloper4 5y ago

> They are not eating, exercising, listening to music, socializing, talking more than necessary, and not allowing themselves to be photographed if there’s a flash This is the standard asceticism routine that every human religion in history followed. (And follows.) I'll trust the weight of centuries of experience over some random internet source.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Barrin92 5y ago
religions have also practiced the punishment of homosexuals and atheists for thousands of years, and doctors have practiced bloodletting for ages. A lot of the standard stuff we've been doing for thousands of years turns out to be pretty terrible the random internet source in this case happens to be harvard medical laying out basic facts about how dopamine works in the human brain and why you can't actually 'fast' it.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  Bloodletting has been shown to be effective treatment for some disorders (phlebotomy), even leeches are still used in modern times.
- wincy 5y ago
  Harvard Medical also extols the virtues of a low fat diet, and managing your cholesterol with statins, both of which aren’t particularly helpful at reducing your mortality.
  - Barrin92 5y ago
    yes, sometimes established medicine gets things wrong. But we do agree that if you experience chest pain tomorrow you consult the harvard trained cardiologist and not a witch doctor, priest or traditional chinese medicine, correct? General point being, if you weigh "weights of centuries" higher than modern expertise, you would still believe that night air is dangerous and your four humors are out of balance instead of believing in germs. The chance that anyone who posts on HN actually treats their illnesses with ancient religious practice is, I'd wager, very low. And that tells you all there is to it.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>>They are not eating, exercising, listening to music, socializing, talking more than necessary, and not allowing themselves to be photographed if there’s a flash >Who are these legions of people? parents of new born twins.

touisteur 5y ago
Oh. Those first 6 months were brutal AF indeed. Thank god for breastfeeding and sleep-deprivation resilience...

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Who are these legions of people? The few articles I have been able to find about it [2][3] indicate that it's Silicon Valley "trying things out" as usual, and assorted media loudly claiming that it doesn't work. It's not legions of people, but "dopamine fasting" was (briefly) popular in certain social media and tech circles. It started out as a "put down your phone and go outside" kind of trend with a pseudoscientific tie-in to dopamine (or at least the popular misconceptions about dopamine). Aside from egregiously abusing neuroscience terms, it was actually a decent idea to encourage people to take a break from the easy rewards like social media, video games, and TV. Probably feels like a revelation to people who were chronically online and forgot that there was an alternative way to live. But then it spiraled into a fad where social media personalities tried to one-up each other or rush to add their own pseudoscientific twists in an attempt to have something new and unique to share. And it evolved into this silly idea that you shouldn't do anything enjoyable during your off time, or even that you had to specifically become uncomfortable or miserable. Outside of those circles, everyone else is just rolling their eyes. But get caught in one of these bubbles and you'll hear a lot of one-upmanship about dopamine fasting and humble brags about not doing certain things. At least until it becomes uncool again, at which point everyone will pretend it never happened. This article probably sounds like nonsense if you haven't been in one of these circles, but it's actually a great resource to give to someone before they go down the "dopamine fasting" rabbit hole. Debunk early and save them the trouble. Moderation is good. Putting down your phone and going outside is good. Having self-discipline is good. But turning it into a status-signaling social media game and applying a pseudoscientific name is a good way to completely miss the point. Just go outside and enjoy yourself.

throwaway2331 5y ago
I remember first seeing it a long time ago on a 4chan thread.[0] For what it's worth, it's been pretty useful for treating maladaptive ADHD habits/hyperfocusing on the wrong things. It has been pretty useful for tweaking my habits, and making me aware that I'm able to actually change them (rather than fall into learned helplessness). I think most people forget that you have to break a fast, at the end of it. Hopefully this time slowly easing into a new, healthier diet regimen. [0]https://test.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/fit/image/1519/35/1519356540254.png https://test.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/fit/image/1519/35...

rgrieselhuber 5y ago

A phrase that I heard once has stuck with me: "Metacognition is the key to self-mastery. The limbic system is how those who perceive themselves to be our betters attempt to gain control over us." With this in mind, I agree fully with your statement on the backlash.

novok 5y ago

> Just one of the wild, reference-free claims [1] the article makes. Who are these legions of people? Mental health professionals might have started encountering this kind of person at the end of their attempts of acting this way, and then started talking about it with each other. Other patients are probably reference the misconstrued influencer articles about "dopamine fasting" in therapy sessions. They can't really tell you real numbers because it would break mental health privacy laws. Hell they might of wrote this mostly to show patients as a reference material. Also the article doesn't make any assertions about the amount of people doing it (your "legions"), just that some people are.

quadrifoliate 5y ago
> Also the article doesn't make any assertions about the amount of people doing it (your "legions"), just that some people are. I literally took the word "legions" from the article. You can find it by searching the article text for that word, finding this line: > Unfortunately, legions of people have misinterpreted the science, as well as the entire concept of a dopamine fast.