5 ms·

I would love more detail, but I think the point is solid. When I get too caught up in something with negative side-effects, I'll definitely take a break from it

I would love more detail, but I think the point is solid. When I get too caught up in something with negative side-effects, I'll definitely take a break from it. E.g., I'll get compulsive about certain kinds of video game, so I'll take steps to set it aside for a while. (E.g., remove the game from my Switch, discharge the Switch's battery, and then put it in some hard-to-reach place, all so that gratification wouldn't be instant.) So that made me think the dopamine addiction/dopamine fasting people had a point. But it sounds like some people over-interpret the theory and under-invest in verifying their interpretations through rigorous testing. That's unfortunate, but it's a behavior you see all the time with self-improvement fads. E.g., I think the paleo people had a point with moving away from foods engineered to maximize repeat purchasing. And in the saner parts of that world you'd see people recommending a framework of responsible self-experimentation, where you try things out and look for health improvements. But then there's also the whole "paleo brownies" crowd, where people ate just as poorly but with nominally different ingredients so they could feel virtuous without any actual improvement.

FearlessNebula 5y ago
Just a heads up, it’s very bad for the battery to keep it in a discharged state for any longer than absolutely necessary. Batteries are best stored at about 50%
- wpietri 5y ago
  Get thee behind me, Satan. The machine is there for me; I am not there for the machine. If tending to my productivity and mental health means replacing a battery every second year instead of every third, then I'm going to pick me over a $35 battery.
  - imwillofficial 5y ago
    What a weird offensively worded reply.
    - wpietri 5y ago
      It's a literary reference about rebuking a tempter, one famous enough to have its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_behind_me,_Satan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_behind_me,_Satan If someone is trying to get away from something with addictive characteristics, the last thing they need is somebody coming by to make that harder. The presumption that I don't know anything about batteries is bad enough. Disregarding what I'm up to is worse. It's like somebody talking about how they're quitting drinking and popping up to say, "But studies show health benefits to drinking!" While true, it's well known and incredibly unhelpful. And as the replies show, his unhelpful intervention could well be wrong to boot.
      - imwillofficial 5y ago
        Still weird, still offensive.
        wpietri 5y ago
        Your opinion is duly noted. And congrats on using HN for a whole year.
        imwillofficial 5y ago
        Also, weirdly hostile. Also, perhaps I’ve only been using this account for a year? Open your mind to new possibilities my friend.
- VygmraMGVl 5y ago
  This is true for NiCd batteries, not for Li-ion. In general, LiIon degrades at a rate roughly linear to state of charge when not in use.
  - Shog9 5y ago
    IIRC, the danger with storing lithium batteries at a low SoC is that they do have some small amount of self-discharge and can eventually drop to levels that cause severe degradation - and potentially catastrophic failure when next charged.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  This depends entirely on battery chemistry and is different for each one. Lithium ion batteries want to be stored at low charge and cold. As long as they don’t self discharge below a certain minimum (at which point they are dead forever) you minimize degradation by keeping charge as low as possible. No need to be obsessive about it because the difference between 5% and 50% isn’t much. Other lithium chemistries want to be stored completely charged, NiCd wants to be about half. Temperature is usually worse than charge state anyway.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> So that made me think the dopamine addiction/dopamine fasting people had a point. The term is nebulous, but I think you're mixing concepts. Taking a break from video games to do other things is a great idea. But the "dopamine fasting" people have evolved the idea to the point that you would have to take a break from everything enjoyable during the down time. That is, no socialization, no music, no enjoyable foods, and nothing that might make you happy. And that's the misconception: You don't have to be miserable to restore the enjoyment of one specific thing. You just have to take a break and do something else. These people would be far happier if they took a break from their easy rewarding activities (Twitter, Netflix, whatever) and simply got up and did anything else, like going outside, going for a walk, socializing with friends, cooking an elaborate meal and inviting some guests over. You don't have to become miserable in general. Diversity of experiences and moderation of the easy rewards is key.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I think we are saying the same thing. I came across people talking about "dopamine addiction" a while back, and they were making the point that there's a sheaf of similar behaviors on different topics/substances. And that one had to learn to recognize the behaviors as a group. And I'll note that "take a break from everything" approach is both much older than this and can be very effective. People who do extended meditation retreats do basically what you describe. I once spent a week at the SF Zen Center's "Green Gulch Farm". No music, basic food, no tech. One could even sit at a table where nobody talked. I loved it. I have no idea if my dopamine levels changed. But it was great to set aside the frantic-feeling short-loop behaviors, accept a period of discomfort, and then feel freer once the compulsions/habits were past. As opposed to, say, quitting video games for a week but substituting more time on Twitter and watching videos. So I could see where they're going with it and I think they had good points. But it sounds like they have taken it too far.

FearlessNebula 5y ago

Just a heads up, it’s very bad for the battery to keep it in a discharged state for any longer than absolutely necessary. Batteries are best stored at about 50%

wpietri 5y ago
Get thee behind me, Satan. The machine is there for me; I am not there for the machine. If tending to my productivity and mental health means replacing a battery every second year instead of every third, then I'm going to pick me over a $35 battery.
- imwillofficial 5y ago
  What a weird offensively worded reply.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    It's a literary reference about rebuking a tempter, one famous enough to have its own Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_behind_me,_Satan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_behind_me,_Satan If someone is trying to get away from something with addictive characteristics, the last thing they need is somebody coming by to make that harder. The presumption that I don't know anything about batteries is bad enough. Disregarding what I'm up to is worse. It's like somebody talking about how they're quitting drinking and popping up to say, "But studies show health benefits to drinking!" While true, it's well known and incredibly unhelpful. And as the replies show, his unhelpful intervention could well be wrong to boot.
    - imwillofficial 5y ago
      Still weird, still offensive.
      - wpietri 5y ago
        Your opinion is duly noted. And congrats on using HN for a whole year.
        imwillofficial 5y ago
        Also, weirdly hostile. Also, perhaps I’ve only been using this account for a year? Open your mind to new possibilities my friend.
VygmraMGVl 5y ago
This is true for NiCd batteries, not for Li-ion. In general, LiIon degrades at a rate roughly linear to state of charge when not in use.
- Shog9 5y ago
  IIRC, the danger with storing lithium batteries at a low SoC is that they do have some small amount of self-discharge and can eventually drop to levels that cause severe degradation - and potentially catastrophic failure when next charged.
colechristensen 5y ago
This depends entirely on battery chemistry and is different for each one. Lithium ion batteries want to be stored at low charge and cold. As long as they don’t self discharge below a certain minimum (at which point they are dead forever) you minimize degradation by keeping charge as low as possible. No need to be obsessive about it because the difference between 5% and 50% isn’t much. Other lithium chemistries want to be stored completely charged, NiCd wants to be about half. Temperature is usually worse than charge state anyway.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> So that made me think the dopamine addiction/dopamine fasting people had a point. The term is nebulous, but I think you're mixing concepts. Taking a break from video games to do other things is a great idea. But the "dopamine fasting" people have evolved the idea to the point that you would have to take a break from everything enjoyable during the down time. That is, no socialization, no music, no enjoyable foods, and nothing that might make you happy. And that's the misconception: You don't have to be miserable to restore the enjoyment of one specific thing. You just have to take a break and do something else. These people would be far happier if they took a break from their easy rewarding activities (Twitter, Netflix, whatever) and simply got up and did anything else, like going outside, going for a walk, socializing with friends, cooking an elaborate meal and inviting some guests over. You don't have to become miserable in general. Diversity of experiences and moderation of the easy rewards is key.

wpietri 5y ago
I think we are saying the same thing. I came across people talking about "dopamine addiction" a while back, and they were making the point that there's a sheaf of similar behaviors on different topics/substances. And that one had to learn to recognize the behaviors as a group. And I'll note that "take a break from everything" approach is both much older than this and can be very effective. People who do extended meditation retreats do basically what you describe. I once spent a week at the SF Zen Center's "Green Gulch Farm". No music, basic food, no tech. One could even sit at a table where nobody talked. I loved it. I have no idea if my dopamine levels changed. But it was great to set aside the frantic-feeling short-loop behaviors, accept a period of discomfort, and then feel freer once the compulsions/habits were past. As opposed to, say, quitting video games for a week but substituting more time on Twitter and watching videos. So I could see where they're going with it and I think they had good points. But it sounds like they have taken it too far.