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We're starting to see changes in vehicle design to address this but typically it is only during a major model redesign rather than between model years. The pop

We're starting to see changes in vehicle design to address this but typically it is only during a major model redesign rather than between model years. The popular solution, that is almost free, is simply moving the catalytic converter from mid-tailpipe to directly connected to the engine block. Essentially the CC is surrounded by the engine block itself on all sides, and you have to disassemble the entire engine from above to get to it. But you're talking about 4~ years between redesigns and that doesn't address any of the vehicles already sold/tens of years of old designs.

d0gsg0w00f 5y ago
I believe that the increased heat level closer to the engine would alter the CC's performance characteristics. [1] - https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/science/chemistry/the-three-way-catalytic-converter/content-section-1.5.2 https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/scie...
- dotancohen 5y ago
  Alter: Improve. Catalytic converters must be hot to operate effectively.
  - CarVac 5y ago
    Improve the performance but reduce the lifespan.
hbwo40 5y ago
> The popular solution, that is almost free, is simply moving the catalytic converter from mid-tailpipe to directly connected to the engine block. Essentially the CC is surrounded by the engine block itself on all sides, and you have to disassemble the entire engine from above to get to it. You are aware a catalytic converter is a wear part that is a component of the exhaust system, right? You want a block disassembly to replace a part so understood to be a wear part it’s covered by US federal warranty to 80,000 miles? You just added at least eight hours of labor — which in major metros can reach $300/hr — and risk to a one hour job. There are absolutely zero reasons to open a block unless the engine itself is imperiled or under inspection. Blocks are notoriously difficult to reassemble to spec and the idea is to avoid opening them as long as possible. I’m aware manufacturers are burying cats closer to the block but that’s universally thought to be a bad idea for owners and a great idea for mechanics. Now you want to put it inside the block? Please, please, please don’t design cars, and let me know which manufacturer came up with that genius solution so I can avoid driving one of their vehicles for the rest of my life. The rest of you should as well because all that “fix” does is octuple your repair bill for fixing a bad cat and risk your engine for doing the same. No disrespect, truly, but after over a decade of being a tech, that might be the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard in vehicle design. And all of that for what, to avoid theft? What makes you think they won’t just steal the car instead if the cat is buried in some Fort Knox inside? We all know where the stolen cats go. Why not start with those places rather than lobby for some John Deere type screwing over on self repair?
- glitchc 5y ago
  Most cars have a powertrain warranty that exceeds the bumper to bumper warranty, and the cat is considered to be part of the powertrain. Typically this is 10 years for unlimited mileage. If your car had its converter stolen and it’s less than 10 years old, it’s worth talking to the dealership. If the dealer won’t honor it, raise it to the automaker’s head office. That’s part of the reason why this crime is popular. Between warranty and insurance claims, it’s largely victimless.
  - hbwo41 5y ago
    No, it isn’t. The catalytic converter is part of the emissions system, which is not covered by powertrain warranty, full stop. The US federal emissions warranty exists precisely because manufacturers refused to cover it under their powertrain warranties. Any who do are an exception. Here’s how you know the distinction: if the catalytic converter fails outright, your engine can’t breathe and loses performance. Your engine doesn’t stop (in most circumstances). Boom, not powertrain, and not covered under powertrain warranty. If this is different elsewhere, it’s different elsewhere, but what you just said is plainly false in the United States. You really should understand that before escalating to an automaker because in this case, you would not have been grounded in facts and I can’t see that call going well at all.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > Most cars have a powertrain warranty that exceeds the bumper to bumper warranty, First, the catalytic convertor is not a part of the powertrain. Second, these warranties do not cover theft. No manufacturer warantee covers theft, it covers component failure.
  - mikestew 5y ago
    If your car had its converter stolen and it’s less than 10 years old, it’s worth talking to the dealership. Your dealership is going to laugh their asses off every time they tell the story about the time glitchc came in and wanted their stolen catalytic converter covered under warranty. Hell, that’s the kind of story employees bring home to their spouse and kids for supper time merriment. Of course, no one believes the story, because who would do that? And as pointed out by others, “emissions system” is the phrase you’re looking for, not “power train”. The reason this is important is because of Federal U. S. law that says emissions systems are required to be covered for X years or Y miles, whichever comes first. Feds don’t give a shit how long your tranny lasts before it blows up.

d0gsg0w00f 5y ago

I believe that the increased heat level closer to the engine would alter the CC's performance characteristics. [1] - https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/science/chemistry/the-three-way-catalytic-converter/content-section-1.5.2 https://www.open.edu/openlearn/science-maths-technology/scie...

dotancohen 5y ago
Alter: Improve. Catalytic converters must be hot to operate effectively.
- CarVac 5y ago
  Improve the performance but reduce the lifespan.

hbwo40 5y ago

> The popular solution, that is almost free, is simply moving the catalytic converter from mid-tailpipe to directly connected to the engine block. Essentially the CC is surrounded by the engine block itself on all sides, and you have to disassemble the entire engine from above to get to it. You are aware a catalytic converter is a wear part that is a component of the exhaust system, right? You want a block disassembly to replace a part so understood to be a wear part it’s covered by US federal warranty to 80,000 miles? You just added at least eight hours of labor — which in major metros can reach $300/hr — and risk to a one hour job. There are absolutely zero reasons to open a block unless the engine itself is imperiled or under inspection. Blocks are notoriously difficult to reassemble to spec and the idea is to avoid opening them as long as possible. I’m aware manufacturers are burying cats closer to the block but that’s universally thought to be a bad idea for owners and a great idea for mechanics. Now you want to put it inside the block? Please, please, please don’t design cars, and let me know which manufacturer came up with that genius solution so I can avoid driving one of their vehicles for the rest of my life. The rest of you should as well because all that “fix” does is octuple your repair bill for fixing a bad cat and risk your engine for doing the same. No disrespect, truly, but after over a decade of being a tech, that might be the stupidest idea I’ve ever heard in vehicle design. And all of that for what, to avoid theft? What makes you think they won’t just steal the car instead if the cat is buried in some Fort Knox inside? We all know where the stolen cats go. Why not start with those places rather than lobby for some John Deere type screwing over on self repair?

glitchc 5y ago
Most cars have a powertrain warranty that exceeds the bumper to bumper warranty, and the cat is considered to be part of the powertrain. Typically this is 10 years for unlimited mileage. If your car had its converter stolen and it’s less than 10 years old, it’s worth talking to the dealership. If the dealer won’t honor it, raise it to the automaker’s head office. That’s part of the reason why this crime is popular. Between warranty and insurance claims, it’s largely victimless.
- hbwo41 5y ago
  No, it isn’t. The catalytic converter is part of the emissions system, which is not covered by powertrain warranty, full stop. The US federal emissions warranty exists precisely because manufacturers refused to cover it under their powertrain warranties. Any who do are an exception. Here’s how you know the distinction: if the catalytic converter fails outright, your engine can’t breathe and loses performance. Your engine doesn’t stop (in most circumstances). Boom, not powertrain, and not covered under powertrain warranty. If this is different elsewhere, it’s different elsewhere, but what you just said is plainly false in the United States. You really should understand that before escalating to an automaker because in this case, you would not have been grounded in facts and I can’t see that call going well at all.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  > Most cars have a powertrain warranty that exceeds the bumper to bumper warranty, First, the catalytic convertor is not a part of the powertrain. Second, these warranties do not cover theft. No manufacturer warantee covers theft, it covers component failure.
- mikestew 5y ago
  If your car had its converter stolen and it’s less than 10 years old, it’s worth talking to the dealership. Your dealership is going to laugh their asses off every time they tell the story about the time glitchc came in and wanted their stolen catalytic converter covered under warranty. Hell, that’s the kind of story employees bring home to their spouse and kids for supper time merriment. Of course, no one believes the story, because who would do that? And as pointed out by others, “emissions system” is the phrase you’re looking for, not “power train”. The reason this is important is because of Federal U. S. law that says emissions systems are required to be covered for X years or Y miles, whichever comes first. Feds don’t give a shit how long your tranny lasts before it blows up.