6 ms·

I think it goes a little deeper. The whole discussion basically mirrors real life politics. One camp want's more collective action to help the unfortunate, the

I think it goes a little deeper. The whole discussion basically mirrors real life politics. One camp want's more collective action to help the unfortunate, the other wants absolute freedom for the individual.

svennek 5y ago
How do you see bitcoin fit into that axis, i.e. how does bitcoin help the unfortunate (that is VERY late to the "game") ? That might disprove my "nothing interesting to discus.
- throwaway554 5y ago
  Bitcoin is an unconfiscable, permissionless inflation hedge. It's a big deal for people that live in authoritarian countries that coincidentally always have huge inflation numbers.
  - svennek 5y ago
    Until you end up in jail... sadly. That is my point. If your country is "sufficiently bad" bitcoin will not (and cannot) help you in the long run.
    - throwaway554 5y ago
      Until you cross the borders and move all your wealth with you by memorizing 12 words.
      - svennek 5y ago
        Tell that to the the people of the ex-DDR, the North Korea and REALLY targeted individuals.. Sadly there exists no sure way to secure you belongings if the other party is sufficiently motivated to strip you of them (or your life).. You can also be killed/robbed outside of your country by intelligence officers of your country...
        fsflover 5y ago
        > the North Korea and REALLY targeted individuals There are always edge cases, where nothing helps. Fortunately, most countries are not like North Korea and you have some freedom, often enough to use crypto.
        throwaway554 5y ago
        What a weird attitude of helplessness. You might as well argue against encryption because the state can always do the $5 wrench attack. It is much easier for the government to confiscate your money from your bank account than to go after your Bitcoin. And it is impossible for the government to stop you from accepting payments in Bitcoin and to cut you off from financial system.
        svennek 5y ago
        Maybe it is the other way around. I live in an old and free democracy in Scandinavia (in the EU) and actually believe in my government's mostly pure motives. Our laws are solid and confiscation is unheard of outside of criminal activity. If that changes drastically, I am screwed either way... And it might be impossible for my government to stop me taking bitcoin but they could surely hinder me in converting them back to regular currency. And in my country nothing can be bought by any cryptocurrency.
        throwaway554 5y ago
        I'm not sure how does you living in an old and free democracy in Scandinavia negate the fact that Bitcoin helps the unfortunate who are living in authoritarian states.
        svennek 5y ago
        Obviously it doesn't, and I might be seriously wrong, but.... But would said unfortunate person have access to a passport and are they allowed to leave their authoritarian country? Do they have anywhere to legally go, where they have the right to residence and can get into the new countries banking system? In the EU at least that is NOT easy unless you already have citizenship in another EU country.... I.e. say you are that person in that country, could you just decide to leave with your twelve word password, your passport and a backpack. And could you setup life in another country? I do also see the value of storing your money in bitcoin due to inflation, if you believe bitcoin is here to stay (I don't believe that), and you can manage to buy it without too much suspicion from your state and convert it back at a later day if you decide to stay in your own country.
Applejinx 5y ago
Further than that: one camp believes in collective action and the welfare of an extended population, encompassing the worthy AND the unworthy, and the other considers that there must be penalties for being unworthy or inferior, and rewards for being worthy or superior. This is a genuine difference of ideology, authentically held. To insist on absolute freedom for the individual, including any penalty or consequence for any lack on any level (and any degree of reward for any superiority no matter how it's arrived at) means you do not care about the unfortunate any more than you'd care about the pile of chips produced whilst making a great sculpture. Not only is the sculpture the point, but it's actively harmful to insist on leaving the superfluous chips stuck on: some waste has to be disposed or you're just poisoning yourself/harming your sculpture. This is a position often held by sculptures and people not often thought of as waste. People who get thought of as waste, frequently would like this assumption re-examined. People who are garbage but occupy categories way beyond their inherent value really REALLY don't want that assumption re-examined…

svennek 5y ago

How do you see bitcoin fit into that axis, i.e. how does bitcoin help the unfortunate (that is VERY late to the "game") ? That might disprove my "nothing interesting to discus.

throwaway554 5y ago
Bitcoin is an unconfiscable, permissionless inflation hedge. It's a big deal for people that live in authoritarian countries that coincidentally always have huge inflation numbers.
- svennek 5y ago
  Until you end up in jail... sadly. That is my point. If your country is "sufficiently bad" bitcoin will not (and cannot) help you in the long run.
  - throwaway554 5y ago
    Until you cross the borders and move all your wealth with you by memorizing 12 words.
    - svennek 5y ago
      Tell that to the the people of the ex-DDR, the North Korea and REALLY targeted individuals.. Sadly there exists no sure way to secure you belongings if the other party is sufficiently motivated to strip you of them (or your life).. You can also be killed/robbed outside of your country by intelligence officers of your country...
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > the North Korea and REALLY targeted individuals There are always edge cases, where nothing helps. Fortunately, most countries are not like North Korea and you have some freedom, often enough to use crypto.
      - throwaway554 5y ago
        What a weird attitude of helplessness. You might as well argue against encryption because the state can always do the $5 wrench attack. It is much easier for the government to confiscate your money from your bank account than to go after your Bitcoin. And it is impossible for the government to stop you from accepting payments in Bitcoin and to cut you off from financial system.
        svennek 5y ago
        Maybe it is the other way around. I live in an old and free democracy in Scandinavia (in the EU) and actually believe in my government's mostly pure motives. Our laws are solid and confiscation is unheard of outside of criminal activity. If that changes drastically, I am screwed either way... And it might be impossible for my government to stop me taking bitcoin but they could surely hinder me in converting them back to regular currency. And in my country nothing can be bought by any cryptocurrency.
        throwaway554 5y ago
        I'm not sure how does you living in an old and free democracy in Scandinavia negate the fact that Bitcoin helps the unfortunate who are living in authoritarian states.
        svennek 5y ago
        Obviously it doesn't, and I might be seriously wrong, but.... But would said unfortunate person have access to a passport and are they allowed to leave their authoritarian country? Do they have anywhere to legally go, where they have the right to residence and can get into the new countries banking system? In the EU at least that is NOT easy unless you already have citizenship in another EU country.... I.e. say you are that person in that country, could you just decide to leave with your twelve word password, your passport and a backpack. And could you setup life in another country? I do also see the value of storing your money in bitcoin due to inflation, if you believe bitcoin is here to stay (I don't believe that), and you can manage to buy it without too much suspicion from your state and convert it back at a later day if you decide to stay in your own country.

Applejinx 5y ago

Further than that: one camp believes in collective action and the welfare of an extended population, encompassing the worthy AND the unworthy, and the other considers that there must be penalties for being unworthy or inferior, and rewards for being worthy or superior. This is a genuine difference of ideology, authentically held. To insist on absolute freedom for the individual, including any penalty or consequence for any lack on any level (and any degree of reward for any superiority no matter how it's arrived at) means you do not care about the unfortunate any more than you'd care about the pile of chips produced whilst making a great sculpture. Not only is the sculpture the point, but it's actively harmful to insist on leaving the superfluous chips stuck on: some waste has to be disposed or you're just poisoning yourself/harming your sculpture. This is a position often held by sculptures and people not often thought of as waste. People who get thought of as waste, frequently would like this assumption re-examined. People who are garbage but occupy categories way beyond their inherent value really REALLY don't want that assumption re-examined…