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Isn't this much better known as Goodhart's Law? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
by darawk 5y ago
Isn't this much better known as Goodhart's Law?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
- asplake 5y agoSimilar but different: one emphasises social decision making, the other, economics. The domain of Goodhart’s law is economic policy.
- thewakalix 5y agoThere's a difference?
- dsr_ 5y agoSure: how a person frames the argument limits what kinds of evidence they are willing to consider.
- ojilles 5y agoAlso differentiated in the article itself, FYI.
- codeflo 5y agoI agree, and the article doesn’t really explain a difference, either. Two quotes: > Campbell’s law states that the more important a metric is in social decision making, the more likely it is to be manipulated. > Goodhart’s Law, states that “When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure”. These are basically paraphrases if you accept that “target” = “important in decision making”, and “likely to be manipulated” = “not a good measure”. That’s fine, important discoveries are often made multiple times independently, but let’s not pretend there’s some important difference where there isn’t any.
- kodah 5y agoGoodhart was an economist and Campbell was a social psychologist. The fact that they independently made similar observations in different fields is substantial. Though, maybe it's more efficient to remember the over-arching idea, it also makes sense to identify them independently.
- dpierce9 5y agoI agree they are basically saying the same thing but there is a subtle difference. Goodhart is observing a fact about measures, Campbell is offering an explanation of Goodhart’s observation, that is, why the target ceases to be a good measure. Goodhart is making a very general observation which might be true for a number of reasons. One alternative to the Campbell version is that value of a measure ages so, by the time the measure has become a target, the world has moved on and the target isn’t any good.
- willvarfar 5y agoI infer an undercurrent of “politics is about manipulating people not representing them” from Campbell and “Wally is going to code himself a minivan” (Dilbert ref) from Goodhart. So Campbell’s might be Goodhart with a politics context but it has a slimier feel to me.
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago> I infer an undercurrent of “politics is about manipulating people not representing them” There's a scene or two in The Wire about "Juking the stats" (1) - its about fooling the people in order to look good and meet campaign promises. Manipulating indeed. More like "Mayor Carcetti's going to juke himself a second term" > “Wally is going to code himself a minivan” (Dilbert ref) from Goodhart Not really, Goodhart was talking about UK monetary policy in 1975. It's political from the start. (2) These aren't different. 1) https://medium.com/@roshanrevankar/juking-the-stats-5926eaf5464 https://medium.com/@roshanrevankar/juking-the-stats-5926eaf5... 2) "Goodhart's law is an adage named after British economist Charles Goodhart, who advanced the idea in a 1975 article on monetary policy in the United Kingdom, Problems of Monetary Management: the U.K. Experience: Any observed statistical regularity will tend to collapse once pressure is placed upon it for control purposes." (Wikipedia)
- bregma 5y agoThey express the same abstract intent but differ in context for the literalists in the crowd.
- itsdrewmiller 5y agoThis is discussed in the article, but my summary would be that Goodhart says "if it (a measure becoming a target) happens it's bad", and Campbell is saying "it will happen if it's important".
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]