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Unions don't plot against the "interests or strategic objectives." They give workers collective bargaining power and representation, helping put them on equal f

Unions don't plot against the "interests or strategic objectives." They give workers collective bargaining power and representation, helping put them on equal footing with their employer to be able to negotiate fairly. Musk is the richest man in the world right now (on paper.) Whatever the costs of allowing unions in his factories, I think he can probably handle it. Most of his problems are of his own creation, like his insistence on pushing hard for more automation when they hadn't been able to sort out their existing automation issues. Unions are extremely common around the world. In the late 60's, something like 30% of the US workforce belonged to unions. Now it's barely above ten percent. The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's.

sennight 5y ago
> Unions don't... You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. Trying to link the fall in union popularity with the class divide is laughable... look to the change in Fed monetary policy and the point at which cash gets injected into the economy - that is where the gulf occurs: access to funny money financial instruments and the transfer of purchasing power from the base of the power structure to the very top through inflation.
- 29293419 5y ago
  > You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. They necessarily assume an adversarial role because their employer can’t be trusted to put their best interests before profit. Unions are the reason Tesla doesn’t hire 8 year olds to spot weld. Hint: Musk and his Emerald mine instincts don’t hold back out of pure love of humanity.
robbedpeter 5y ago
Unions mean no more merit based raises or promotions. Your worst performing, laziest asshole of an employee makes the same rate as your best, most motivated employee with the same job title. Rewarding competence or initiative becomes impossible. Unions fight for these worthless assholes as if civilization would crumble if they weren't given equal pay and benefits. Eventually you lose your best employees because working with a permanent unfireable set of worthless coworkers is unbearable, and the department fills with people who put in the minimum amount of effort needed to not get canned. They all get fixed yearly raises based on a minimized cost of living increase that currently is waaaaaay less than inflation. Even talking about anything merit related that might result in a discussion about some people getting paid more than others is taboo, to the extent that one risks getting ousted by the union by doing so. If a company wants to have a culture in which quality of individual work and personal drive are rewarded, they should treat unions like the plague. Unions represent a race to the bottom for certain industries. Menial labor is different from creative work - your star package handler is not contributing to value in the same way a star engineer with multiple PhD and industry certifications does. If you eliminate the ability to reward people commensurate with the value they bring, they'll find a different occupation and communicate negatively about your company to their peers. Or they'll drop their level of output commensurate to whatever their coworkers produce sufficient to avoid unemployment. Unions are not the best tool for all workplace related issues. Particularly with regards to the concepts of merit and work ethic.
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  This just isn't true and we have entire nations to prove it like Denmark, where I live and work and in which the majority are members of unions. An adversarial relationship is not inevitable nor is it desired. I wish this unfortunate byproduct of American anti-union campaigning would stop. The US example is far from the only one and it is fanned by its bipartisan politics that have poisoned the well of cooperation we all can take part in if we just dropped the desire to crusade in anger. I am also American and I have seen both sides.
  - robbedpeter 5y ago
    I'm currently in this situation, having seen talent leave and 80% of my coworkers are useless twats. I left this situation at my previous workplace, watching a process of unionization coincide with a merger, leaving behind a horde of useless twats who then had jobs for life, regardless of competence, with management then having no history with those people. This company is now globally infamous for poor service and incompetent techs and sales people. I've seen this play out repeatedly and inevitably in 30 years of work. Unions are an anachronism, and we need something better. American unions are an unholy hybrid of faux social activists and lobbying factions who use "the plight of the worker" as a political bludgeon. Locally run unions devolve into cults of personality and high school style cliques, rendering political clout and social prominence to otherwise non-contributing members of society. We don't need non governmental bureaucracies rewarding the stupid, incompetent, and lazy with pensions, benefits, and job entitlements.
    - op00to 5y ago
      Ever think that it’s not your coworkers that are useless? Maybe turn the lens inward. The only common pattern i see over your 30-year experience is you. Maybe instead of blaming unions for your current situation, ask why haven’t you left your current job?
      - robbedpeter 5y ago
        The compensation, location, and work are good - I'm willing to put up with the nonsense for reasons that transcend the work environment. That doesn't mean I don't see problems for what they are. I want nothing but the best for people, but I also don't think people should sneak through life and profit through the exploitation of arbitrary rules and the ignorance of employers about the exact nature of a job. The way I see it, you should be reimbursed for your work commensurate with the value you bring to an organization. I find myself in that situation, with good compensation and benefits. I joined a team of unionized people who talk a great game, but are mostly play acting at the work, and are not interested in raising the expectations or quality of work. I rocked the boat and have been taken to task numerous times for working too fast, or too much. For making the others look bad. For completing projects that were intended to be left undone as bargaining chips during contract negotiations. I am a little resentful of the fact that they take home as much as I do. It also upsets me when people are shitty to employers. The job itself is meaningful and the work is good, the management is excellent. The problem with unions isn't the state of things when everything works out to the benefit of everyone, including the employers - those situations can and do happen. The problem is when awful people are in charge and see the situation as an opportunity to exploit the employer and beat the system. Unions give such people unwarranted and more or less permanent power, without recourse.
op00to 5y ago
But insanely rich people have a god given right to get more rich at any cost. If the poors stop getting fucked over, Musk might have to … do nothing. It doesn’t matter to him financially, he’s just a massive piece of shit.
drstewart 5y ago
>The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's. Very insightful comment. Quick question though: how has the drop of middle class wealth correlated with the share of women and minorities in the workplace since the 60s? Do we draw conclusions against that correlation as well?
xibalba 5y ago
> drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's Another correlate, and IMO more compelling, is the size of the labor pool. Over the time frame you cite, the domestic and international labor that could viably compete for jobs grew massively and nonlinearly relative to production and end demand. In other words, an oversupply of labor was and remains a big drag on wage growth.

sennight 5y ago

> Unions don't... You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. Trying to link the fall in union popularity with the class divide is laughable... look to the change in Fed monetary policy and the point at which cash gets injected into the economy - that is where the gulf occurs: access to funny money financial instruments and the transfer of purchasing power from the base of the power structure to the very top through inflation.

29293419 5y ago
> You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. They necessarily assume an adversarial role because their employer can’t be trusted to put their best interests before profit. Unions are the reason Tesla doesn’t hire 8 year olds to spot weld. Hint: Musk and his Emerald mine instincts don’t hold back out of pure love of humanity.

robbedpeter 5y ago

Unions mean no more merit based raises or promotions. Your worst performing, laziest asshole of an employee makes the same rate as your best, most motivated employee with the same job title. Rewarding competence or initiative becomes impossible. Unions fight for these worthless assholes as if civilization would crumble if they weren't given equal pay and benefits. Eventually you lose your best employees because working with a permanent unfireable set of worthless coworkers is unbearable, and the department fills with people who put in the minimum amount of effort needed to not get canned. They all get fixed yearly raises based on a minimized cost of living increase that currently is waaaaaay less than inflation. Even talking about anything merit related that might result in a discussion about some people getting paid more than others is taboo, to the extent that one risks getting ousted by the union by doing so. If a company wants to have a culture in which quality of individual work and personal drive are rewarded, they should treat unions like the plague. Unions represent a race to the bottom for certain industries. Menial labor is different from creative work - your star package handler is not contributing to value in the same way a star engineer with multiple PhD and industry certifications does. If you eliminate the ability to reward people commensurate with the value they bring, they'll find a different occupation and communicate negatively about your company to their peers. Or they'll drop their level of output commensurate to whatever their coworkers produce sufficient to avoid unemployment. Unions are not the best tool for all workplace related issues. Particularly with regards to the concepts of merit and work ethic.

emptysongglass 5y ago
This just isn't true and we have entire nations to prove it like Denmark, where I live and work and in which the majority are members of unions. An adversarial relationship is not inevitable nor is it desired. I wish this unfortunate byproduct of American anti-union campaigning would stop. The US example is far from the only one and it is fanned by its bipartisan politics that have poisoned the well of cooperation we all can take part in if we just dropped the desire to crusade in anger. I am also American and I have seen both sides.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  I'm currently in this situation, having seen talent leave and 80% of my coworkers are useless twats. I left this situation at my previous workplace, watching a process of unionization coincide with a merger, leaving behind a horde of useless twats who then had jobs for life, regardless of competence, with management then having no history with those people. This company is now globally infamous for poor service and incompetent techs and sales people. I've seen this play out repeatedly and inevitably in 30 years of work. Unions are an anachronism, and we need something better. American unions are an unholy hybrid of faux social activists and lobbying factions who use "the plight of the worker" as a political bludgeon. Locally run unions devolve into cults of personality and high school style cliques, rendering political clout and social prominence to otherwise non-contributing members of society. We don't need non governmental bureaucracies rewarding the stupid, incompetent, and lazy with pensions, benefits, and job entitlements.
  - op00to 5y ago
    Ever think that it’s not your coworkers that are useless? Maybe turn the lens inward. The only common pattern i see over your 30-year experience is you. Maybe instead of blaming unions for your current situation, ask why haven’t you left your current job?
    - robbedpeter 5y ago
      The compensation, location, and work are good - I'm willing to put up with the nonsense for reasons that transcend the work environment. That doesn't mean I don't see problems for what they are. I want nothing but the best for people, but I also don't think people should sneak through life and profit through the exploitation of arbitrary rules and the ignorance of employers about the exact nature of a job. The way I see it, you should be reimbursed for your work commensurate with the value you bring to an organization. I find myself in that situation, with good compensation and benefits. I joined a team of unionized people who talk a great game, but are mostly play acting at the work, and are not interested in raising the expectations or quality of work. I rocked the boat and have been taken to task numerous times for working too fast, or too much. For making the others look bad. For completing projects that were intended to be left undone as bargaining chips during contract negotiations. I am a little resentful of the fact that they take home as much as I do. It also upsets me when people are shitty to employers. The job itself is meaningful and the work is good, the management is excellent. The problem with unions isn't the state of things when everything works out to the benefit of everyone, including the employers - those situations can and do happen. The problem is when awful people are in charge and see the situation as an opportunity to exploit the employer and beat the system. Unions give such people unwarranted and more or less permanent power, without recourse.

op00to 5y ago

But insanely rich people have a god given right to get more rich at any cost. If the poors stop getting fucked over, Musk might have to … do nothing. It doesn’t matter to him financially, he’s just a massive piece of shit.

drstewart 5y ago

>The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's. Very insightful comment. Quick question though: how has the drop of middle class wealth correlated with the share of women and minorities in the workplace since the 60s? Do we draw conclusions against that correlation as well?

xibalba 5y ago

> drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's Another correlate, and IMO more compelling, is the size of the labor pool. Over the time frame you cite, the domestic and international labor that could viably compete for jobs grew massively and nonlinearly relative to production and end demand. In other words, an oversupply of labor was and remains a big drag on wage growth.