5 ms·

Nothing would make me automate faster than being told I had to accommodate employees plotting against my interests or the strategic objectives of the enterprise

Nothing would make me automate faster than being told I had to accommodate employees plotting against my interests or the strategic objectives of the enterprise I built. That is especially true if there was a hint of an outside union franchise sniffing about.

toofy 5y ago
> … plotting against the strategic objectives of the enterprise I built. Nothing would make me unionize faster than a boss whose delusion is so thorough he has convinced himself it’s his work alone and not the team which has brought the product to life.
- sennight 5y ago
  That is what the money is for, but I'm sure your coup d'etat would do wonders for the product and not end in a predictable cycle of cannibalization that finally gives way to business failure.
- vadfa 5y ago
  Workers, especially line workers, are expendable. A good CEO very much is not.
- SyzygistSix 5y ago
  A couple of arguments I have heard against unionizing at the Tesla factory is that the workers are part of the innovation that takes place there. I'm not sure if that kind of flexibility would be permitted in a union run factory. Also the UAW rarely does or is able to negotiate for stock options, which Tesla workers currently have. Although I can't speak to the validity of either of these. Glass door seems to rate Tesla well and I doubt Tesla managed to game Glass Door but no one else has.
  - op00to 5y ago
    What? How are non-union employees “innovative”, but union employees are unable to be innovative? Just because you are a part of a union doesn’t mean your brain shuts off.
    - SyzygistSix 5y ago
      I am under the impression that job descriptions and what they are allowed to do as part of their job is constrained for union workers. As a form of protection, this makes sense, so that you can't be forced to do work that you aren't being paid for, like repairing equipment. This has both upsides and downsides and I have heard that sometimes it is taken to extremes.
  - penjelly 5y ago
    > game Glass Door but no one else has. weird to assume glassdoor is 100% immune to being gamed.
    - SyzygistSix 5y ago
      I don't but if one company can then I would imagine others with similar resources could as well. Yet some rich, tech savvy companies still have poor scores.
  - ubertaco 5y ago
    >I doubt Tesla managed to game GlassDoor but no one else has. Uh, gaming GlassDoor is pretty common practice. A not-insignificant number of companies tie either carrots (small bonuses) or sticks (a condition of continued employment) to employees leaving artificially-positive reviews on GlassDoor. It tends to be symptomatic of the same sort of environment where illegal union-busting tactics would be totally normal.
    - SyzygistSix 5y ago
      On one hand that makes sense but on the other hand, why does a company with tech savvy people and tons of money, like Amazon, not game it then? There are plenty of companies with both tech savvy and serious resources that have terrible GlassDoor scores.
      - Jcowell 5y ago
        Why would need to? Is there a shortage of people , warehouse and developers, not applying despite hearing about the culture?
KennyBlanken 5y ago
Unions don't plot against the "interests or strategic objectives." They give workers collective bargaining power and representation, helping put them on equal footing with their employer to be able to negotiate fairly. Musk is the richest man in the world right now (on paper.) Whatever the costs of allowing unions in his factories, I think he can probably handle it. Most of his problems are of his own creation, like his insistence on pushing hard for more automation when they hadn't been able to sort out their existing automation issues. Unions are extremely common around the world. In the late 60's, something like 30% of the US workforce belonged to unions. Now it's barely above ten percent. The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's.
- sennight 5y ago
  > Unions don't... You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. Trying to link the fall in union popularity with the class divide is laughable... look to the change in Fed monetary policy and the point at which cash gets injected into the economy - that is where the gulf occurs: access to funny money financial instruments and the transfer of purchasing power from the base of the power structure to the very top through inflation.
  - 29293419 5y ago
    > You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. They necessarily assume an adversarial role because their employer can’t be trusted to put their best interests before profit. Unions are the reason Tesla doesn’t hire 8 year olds to spot weld. Hint: Musk and his Emerald mine instincts don’t hold back out of pure love of humanity.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  Unions mean no more merit based raises or promotions. Your worst performing, laziest asshole of an employee makes the same rate as your best, most motivated employee with the same job title. Rewarding competence or initiative becomes impossible. Unions fight for these worthless assholes as if civilization would crumble if they weren't given equal pay and benefits. Eventually you lose your best employees because working with a permanent unfireable set of worthless coworkers is unbearable, and the department fills with people who put in the minimum amount of effort needed to not get canned. They all get fixed yearly raises based on a minimized cost of living increase that currently is waaaaaay less than inflation. Even talking about anything merit related that might result in a discussion about some people getting paid more than others is taboo, to the extent that one risks getting ousted by the union by doing so. If a company wants to have a culture in which quality of individual work and personal drive are rewarded, they should treat unions like the plague. Unions represent a race to the bottom for certain industries. Menial labor is different from creative work - your star package handler is not contributing to value in the same way a star engineer with multiple PhD and industry certifications does. If you eliminate the ability to reward people commensurate with the value they bring, they'll find a different occupation and communicate negatively about your company to their peers. Or they'll drop their level of output commensurate to whatever their coworkers produce sufficient to avoid unemployment. Unions are not the best tool for all workplace related issues. Particularly with regards to the concepts of merit and work ethic.
js8 5y ago
By all means, automate! If there are not enough jobs, people will either create BS jobs (which are usually decently paid, being outside the spotlight of corporate optimization), or they will revolt and push for basic income (and robot tax). Either way, society will be better off.
- sennight 5y ago
  Well it certainly forces the issue, because the equation changes from: automation cost < labor cost to automation cost < labor cost + cost of union rep declaring "I'm the captain now"
  - DuskStar 5y ago
    Even better - automaton cost today < cost of never automating because the union won't let you cut jobs
op00to 5y ago
Who’s gonna fix your robots?

toofy 5y ago

> … plotting against the strategic objectives of the enterprise I built. Nothing would make me unionize faster than a boss whose delusion is so thorough he has convinced himself it’s his work alone and not the team which has brought the product to life.

sennight 5y ago
That is what the money is for, but I'm sure your coup d'etat would do wonders for the product and not end in a predictable cycle of cannibalization that finally gives way to business failure.
vadfa 5y ago
Workers, especially line workers, are expendable. A good CEO very much is not.
SyzygistSix 5y ago
A couple of arguments I have heard against unionizing at the Tesla factory is that the workers are part of the innovation that takes place there. I'm not sure if that kind of flexibility would be permitted in a union run factory. Also the UAW rarely does or is able to negotiate for stock options, which Tesla workers currently have. Although I can't speak to the validity of either of these. Glass door seems to rate Tesla well and I doubt Tesla managed to game Glass Door but no one else has.
- op00to 5y ago
  What? How are non-union employees “innovative”, but union employees are unable to be innovative? Just because you are a part of a union doesn’t mean your brain shuts off.
  - SyzygistSix 5y ago
    I am under the impression that job descriptions and what they are allowed to do as part of their job is constrained for union workers. As a form of protection, this makes sense, so that you can't be forced to do work that you aren't being paid for, like repairing equipment. This has both upsides and downsides and I have heard that sometimes it is taken to extremes.
- penjelly 5y ago
  > game Glass Door but no one else has. weird to assume glassdoor is 100% immune to being gamed.
  - SyzygistSix 5y ago
    I don't but if one company can then I would imagine others with similar resources could as well. Yet some rich, tech savvy companies still have poor scores.
- ubertaco 5y ago
  >I doubt Tesla managed to game GlassDoor but no one else has. Uh, gaming GlassDoor is pretty common practice. A not-insignificant number of companies tie either carrots (small bonuses) or sticks (a condition of continued employment) to employees leaving artificially-positive reviews on GlassDoor. It tends to be symptomatic of the same sort of environment where illegal union-busting tactics would be totally normal.
  - SyzygistSix 5y ago
    On one hand that makes sense but on the other hand, why does a company with tech savvy people and tons of money, like Amazon, not game it then? There are plenty of companies with both tech savvy and serious resources that have terrible GlassDoor scores.
    - Jcowell 5y ago
      Why would need to? Is there a shortage of people , warehouse and developers, not applying despite hearing about the culture?

KennyBlanken 5y ago

Unions don't plot against the "interests or strategic objectives." They give workers collective bargaining power and representation, helping put them on equal footing with their employer to be able to negotiate fairly. Musk is the richest man in the world right now (on paper.) Whatever the costs of allowing unions in his factories, I think he can probably handle it. Most of his problems are of his own creation, like his insistence on pushing hard for more automation when they hadn't been able to sort out their existing automation issues. Unions are extremely common around the world. In the late 60's, something like 30% of the US workforce belonged to unions. Now it's barely above ten percent. The drop correlates well against middle class wealth, which has plunged steadily, again, since the late 60's.

sennight 5y ago
> Unions don't... You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. Trying to link the fall in union popularity with the class divide is laughable... look to the change in Fed monetary policy and the point at which cash gets injected into the economy - that is where the gulf occurs: access to funny money financial instruments and the transfer of purchasing power from the base of the power structure to the very top through inflation.
- 29293419 5y ago
  > You then go on to describe how they necessarily assume an adversarial role. They necessarily assume an adversarial role because their employer can’t be trusted to put their best interests before profit. Unions are the reason Tesla doesn’t hire 8 year olds to spot weld. Hint: Musk and his Emerald mine instincts don’t hold back out of pure love of humanity.
robbedpeter 5y ago
Unions mean no more merit based raises or promotions. Your worst performing, laziest asshole of an employee makes the same rate as your best, most motivated employee with the same job title. Rewarding competence or initiative becomes impossible. Unions fight for these worthless assholes as if civilization would crumble if they weren't given equal pay and benefits. Eventually you lose your best employees because working with a permanent unfireable set of worthless coworkers is unbearable, and the department fills with people who put in the minimum amount of effort needed to not get canned. They all get fixed yearly raises based on a minimized cost of living increase that currently is waaaaaay less than inflation. Even talking about anything merit related that might result in a discussion about some people getting paid more than others is taboo, to the extent that one risks getting ousted by the union by doing so. If a company wants to have a culture in which quality of individual work and personal drive are rewarded, they should treat unions like the plague. Unions represent a race to the bottom for certain industries. Menial labor is different from creative work - your star package handler is not contributing to value in the same way a star engineer with multiple PhD and industry certifications does. If you eliminate the ability to reward people commensurate with the value they bring, they'll find a different occupation and communicate negatively about your company to their peers. Or they'll drop their level of output commensurate to whatever their coworkers produce sufficient to avoid unemployment. Unions are not the best tool for all workplace related issues. Particularly with regards to the concepts of merit and work ethic.

js8 5y ago

By all means, automate! If there are not enough jobs, people will either create BS jobs (which are usually decently paid, being outside the spotlight of corporate optimization), or they will revolt and push for basic income (and robot tax). Either way, society will be better off.

sennight 5y ago
Well it certainly forces the issue, because the equation changes from: automation cost < labor cost to automation cost < labor cost + cost of union rep declaring "I'm the captain now"
- DuskStar 5y ago
  Even better - automaton cost today < cost of never automating because the union won't let you cut jobs

op00to 5y ago

Who’s gonna fix your robots?