5 ms·

It could be from the standpoint of thermal design and having a reasonable idea of how long components will last at the temperatures they will typically run at.

by blihp 5y ago

It could be from the standpoint of thermal design and having a reasonable idea of how long components will last at the temperatures they will typically run at. Realistically, all you need is a capacitor or two to fail in the ballpark to achieve that end with most customers. Granted, one wouldn't be able to to say 'after exactly X years of expected usage it will fail' but more likely be able to say 'after no more than X years of expected usage most units should fail'. Some heavy users would have theirs fail early and the company might have to correct via a warranty claim but that could easily be more than made up for by the masses of other customers that arrive for replacements roughly on schedule. One doesn't even need to be that devious: just make 'consumables' like batteries and flash drives not easily replaceable nor easily sourced. Then just sit back and wait for them to start failing. As long as most manufacturers did this, you wouldn't have to worry about losing business to your competitors due to the practice. Pretty sure you can put a check mark next to most phone and laptop manufacturers on that front these days. This isn't unique to tech. A couple of real world examples of planned obsolescence via designed-in failure modes: incandescent lightbulb filaments were designed to fail ~1000 hours of use (even though they could easily have lasted far longer) and most clothes washers are designed to fail after ~10 years (IIRC, manufacturers design a seal in the tub to slowly disintegrate via your laundry detergent.)

lotsofpulp 5y ago
> One doesn't even need to be that devious: just make 'consumables' like batteries and flash drives not easily replaceable nor easily sourced. Then just sit back and wait for them to start failing. As long as most manufacturers did this, you wouldn't have to worry about losing business to your competitors due to the practice. Based on the lack of profits from selling hardware in the first place, it makes more sense to me that these lower quality products are made with tradeoffs that result in a lower price for their target audience. The grand conspiracy idea, even if it were true, clearly did not pan out considering the loss in market value for basically every laptop brand other than Apple. > This isn't unique to tech. A couple of real world examples of planned obsolescence via designed-in failure modes: incandescent lightbulb filaments were designed to fail ~1000 hours of use (even though they could easily have lasted far longer) and most clothes washers are designed to fail after ~10 years (IIRC, manufacturers design a seal in the tub to slowly disintegrate via your laundry detergent.) Source? Unless there was only 1 or 2 washing machine manufacturers, it seems kind of trivial for a competing company to sell the tub with a better seal with a longer warranty. Once again, it is probably lower quality products aimed for people who want to pay lower prices. The speed queen or Miele washer with 5 year warranty is available for those who want to spend for it. Personally, I would rather buy a washing machine that costs half as much from Costco which comes with a 4 year warranty, and trash it when it breaks. If another manufacturer wanted to sell a washer with a 5 year warranty that cost the same, or a 10 year warranty that cost less than double, I would be game for that. The same situation for the light bulb. If there are competing manufacturers, people would rather pay more to not have to change light bulbs. Although, this depends on how easy it is to change the bulb. For a parking lot light needing a truck with a boom, I would spend double to get a quality bulb with a better warranty. For a house bulb I can change with a step ladder, I would rather pay $2 and gamble on it lasting longer than a $4 bulb, because even if it does fail after 1 year instead of 2 years, I am not going to spend my time warrantying a $4 item.
- coryrc 5y ago
  Light bulbs lifetime was open collusion because longer-lifetime lightbulbs are less efficient electrically. Lifetime electricity cost for incandescents is much more than purchase cost, so buying longer-lived bulbs costs you money.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I do not see how that is collusion in the usual sense of the world? That is simply consumers opting for the better value, making the sale of longer lifetime bulbs an uncompetitive option.
    - coryrc 5y ago
      It was the manufacturers that agreed not to sell non-standard 1000-hr bulbs, not consumers who stopped buying.
rasz 5y ago
> clothes washers are designed to fail after ~10 years (IIRC, manufacturers design a seal in the tub to slowly disintegrate via your laundry detergent.) Worse :( Seal can be easily replaced. They cast Drum Support/Spider part from specially selected alloy with curious property of easily Dissolving in washing powder :) https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=corroded+spider+washing https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=corroded+spider+was... https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?49740 https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi... Drum spider corrodes and falls apart, incidentally it is often the Only internal part not covered with anti corrosion paint :), and drum itself is obviously stainless. For comparison something like Miele is all stainless. Audi (VW group) 2.0 TDI BLB Engine is made to fail at ~200K no matter what you do, from oil pump to head micro fractures. Crankshaft sprocket at 200K http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSlFIeSXI/AAAAAAAAG9o/rtpOnIBM2NM/s400/PICT0002.JPG http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSlFIeSXI/AAAAAAAAG9o/rt... http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSn5YALLI/AAAAAAAAG9s/ulWqenqf22I/s400/PICT0003.JPG http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSn5YALLI/AAAAAAAAG9s/ul... http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSp1yUs4I/AAAAAAAAG9w/mOXeD-YGa_s/s400/PICT0004.JPG http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSp1yUs4I/AAAAAAAAG9w/mO... VW answer: this part is non serviceable, whole crankshaft needs to be replaced :D Why is it made out of putty while smaller sprocket (the one taking more force) is still 'working'? Why is it designed not to be replaceable? Good 'old timer/not by the book' mechanic is still able to replace it (heat whole crankshaft, use big hammer). 200K is usually first crankshaft turn/grind, engine block itself is good for >500K easily.
formerly_proven 5y ago
> incandescent lightbulb filaments were designed to fail ~1000 hours of use (even though they could easily have lasted far longer) This is repeated a lot but not correct. All the "forever incandescent" bulbs have one thing in common: they're dim, and they have a very red color temperature. They live long, because their filaments are much colder. If you want whiter light, and more of it (because lower filament temperatures are less efficient, since they emit even more infrared, as the entire spectrum is more red-shifted and flatter), the only way with incandescent is a higher filament temperature, which inherently lowers lamp lifetime. What changed, besides lifetime, when lamps went from around 2000-3000 hours to 1000 hours is that they got way brighter and more white. Which is what customers wanted.
- asddubs 5y ago
  although it certainly is true these days, that the average LED based bulb is pushing those LEDs hard, which incidentally also makes them less efficient, rather than just using more of them at the same wattage. Check out the dubai lamp to see a lamp designed to be efficient and last: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
  - LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
    The Dubai Lamp is not that special. There are similar lamps with only slightly more wattage, but also slightly more lumen. Osram Professional LED Retrofit Classic, or somesuch for instance. In Europe. Don't know about the Americas, Asia...
    - asddubs 5y ago
      I googled that model, it doesn't really seem to have all that many filaments for its wattage rating, so I doubt it's underdriving those LEDs like the dubai lamp. The special thing about it isn't the lumen/wattage, but the longevity by reducing the amount of stress on the LEDs
      - 5y ago
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
OTOH, given how all consumer electronics contain complex microcontrollers running some RTOS and usually a buffered RTC, would it be inconceivable to have some periodic check running there, and after 2 years of time, changing some voltage on some path to ever so slightly higher, spinning some fan just a little bit slower, doing other weird pwm stuff, and have it cooked? Who would ever know with obfuscated firmware, deeply embedded and encrypted? I'd say it would be less complicated to implement than the stuff which caused Diesel-Gate.

by blihp 5y ago

lotsofpulp 5y ago

> One doesn't even need to be that devious: just make 'consumables' like batteries and flash drives not easily replaceable nor easily sourced. Then just sit back and wait for them to start failing. As long as most manufacturers did this, you wouldn't have to worry about losing business to your competitors due to the practice. Based on the lack of profits from selling hardware in the first place, it makes more sense to me that these lower quality products are made with tradeoffs that result in a lower price for their target audience. The grand conspiracy idea, even if it were true, clearly did not pan out considering the loss in market value for basically every laptop brand other than Apple. > This isn't unique to tech. A couple of real world examples of planned obsolescence via designed-in failure modes: incandescent lightbulb filaments were designed to fail ~1000 hours of use (even though they could easily have lasted far longer) and most clothes washers are designed to fail after ~10 years (IIRC, manufacturers design a seal in the tub to slowly disintegrate via your laundry detergent.) Source? Unless there was only 1 or 2 washing machine manufacturers, it seems kind of trivial for a competing company to sell the tub with a better seal with a longer warranty. Once again, it is probably lower quality products aimed for people who want to pay lower prices. The speed queen or Miele washer with 5 year warranty is available for those who want to spend for it. Personally, I would rather buy a washing machine that costs half as much from Costco which comes with a 4 year warranty, and trash it when it breaks. If another manufacturer wanted to sell a washer with a 5 year warranty that cost the same, or a 10 year warranty that cost less than double, I would be game for that. The same situation for the light bulb. If there are competing manufacturers, people would rather pay more to not have to change light bulbs. Although, this depends on how easy it is to change the bulb. For a parking lot light needing a truck with a boom, I would spend double to get a quality bulb with a better warranty. For a house bulb I can change with a step ladder, I would rather pay $2 and gamble on it lasting longer than a $4 bulb, because even if it does fail after 1 year instead of 2 years, I am not going to spend my time warrantying a $4 item.

coryrc 5y ago
Light bulbs lifetime was open collusion because longer-lifetime lightbulbs are less efficient electrically. Lifetime electricity cost for incandescents is much more than purchase cost, so buying longer-lived bulbs costs you money.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I do not see how that is collusion in the usual sense of the world? That is simply consumers opting for the better value, making the sale of longer lifetime bulbs an uncompetitive option.
  - coryrc 5y ago
    It was the manufacturers that agreed not to sell non-standard 1000-hr bulbs, not consumers who stopped buying.

rasz 5y ago

> clothes washers are designed to fail after ~10 years (IIRC, manufacturers design a seal in the tub to slowly disintegrate via your laundry detergent.) Worse :( Seal can be easily replaced. They cast Drum Support/Spider part from specially selected alloy with curious property of easily Dissolving in washing powder :) https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=corroded+spider+washing https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=corroded+spider+was... https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?49740 https://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi... Drum spider corrodes and falls apart, incidentally it is often the Only internal part not covered with anti corrosion paint :), and drum itself is obviously stainless. For comparison something like Miele is all stainless. Audi (VW group) 2.0 TDI BLB Engine is made to fail at ~200K no matter what you do, from oil pump to head micro fractures. Crankshaft sprocket at 200K http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSlFIeSXI/AAAAAAAAG9o/rtpOnIBM2NM/s400/PICT0002.JPG http://lh6.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSlFIeSXI/AAAAAAAAG9o/rt... http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSn5YALLI/AAAAAAAAG9s/ulWqenqf22I/s400/PICT0003.JPG http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSn5YALLI/AAAAAAAAG9s/ul... http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSp1yUs4I/AAAAAAAAG9w/mOXeD-YGa_s/s400/PICT0004.JPG http://lh3.ggpht.com/_m_33vQTtsxM/SyuSp1yUs4I/AAAAAAAAG9w/mO... VW answer: this part is non serviceable, whole crankshaft needs to be replaced :D Why is it made out of putty while smaller sprocket (the one taking more force) is still 'working'? Why is it designed not to be replaceable? Good 'old timer/not by the book' mechanic is still able to replace it (heat whole crankshaft, use big hammer). 200K is usually first crankshaft turn/grind, engine block itself is good for >500K easily.

formerly_proven 5y ago

> incandescent lightbulb filaments were designed to fail ~1000 hours of use (even though they could easily have lasted far longer) This is repeated a lot but not correct. All the "forever incandescent" bulbs have one thing in common: they're dim, and they have a very red color temperature. They live long, because their filaments are much colder. If you want whiter light, and more of it (because lower filament temperatures are less efficient, since they emit even more infrared, as the entire spectrum is more red-shifted and flatter), the only way with incandescent is a higher filament temperature, which inherently lowers lamp lifetime. What changed, besides lifetime, when lamps went from around 2000-3000 hours to 1000 hours is that they got way brighter and more white. Which is what customers wanted.

asddubs 5y ago
although it certainly is true these days, that the average LED based bulb is pushing those LEDs hard, which incidentally also makes them less efficient, rather than just using more of them at the same wattage. Check out the dubai lamp to see a lamp designed to be efficient and last: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klaJqofCsu4
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
  The Dubai Lamp is not that special. There are similar lamps with only slightly more wattage, but also slightly more lumen. Osram Professional LED Retrofit Classic, or somesuch for instance. In Europe. Don't know about the Americas, Asia...
  - asddubs 5y ago
    I googled that model, it doesn't really seem to have all that many filaments for its wattage rating, so I doubt it's underdriving those LEDs like the dubai lamp. The special thing about it isn't the lumen/wattage, but the longevity by reducing the amount of stress on the LEDs
    - 5y ago

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago

OTOH, given how all consumer electronics contain complex microcontrollers running some RTOS and usually a buffered RTC, would it be inconceivable to have some periodic check running there, and after 2 years of time, changing some voltage on some path to ever so slightly higher, spinning some fan just a little bit slower, doing other weird pwm stuff, and have it cooked? Who would ever know with obfuscated firmware, deeply embedded and encrypted? I'd say it would be less complicated to implement than the stuff which caused Diesel-Gate.