4 ms·

While in one sense, it's trivial to transport gopher over TLS, in another sense, it's hard to add because gopher itself has no concept of TLS, and thus a client

by spc476 5y ago

While in one sense, it's trivial to transport gopher over TLS, in another sense, it's hard to add because gopher itself has no concept of TLS, and thus a client cannot know from within gopher to use TLS or not. I blogged about this: http://boston.conman.org/2019/03/31.1 http://boston.conman.org/2019/03/31.1

kovac 5y ago
Isn't keeping 3rd party stuff like TLS out of the core protocol a good thing? Regarding breaking existing clients in a catastrophic way, I think the server could send an error response to the client that don't support TLS (which is defined in the protocol so the clients should understand the error) if it doesn't want to serve some content without encryption or serve content over port 70 over plain text otherwise? I don't see why old clients are a show stopper there.
- spc476 5y ago
  Know your market. There's a substantial number of people who use gopher from older computers (think of retro computing). Also, error reporting in the gopher protocol is terrible at best.
mattlondon 5y ago
Gopher+ makes knowing to use TLS trivial. Most modern clients default to using TLS and failover to plain text as far as I know.
- spc476 5y ago
  There are very few, if any Gopher+ servers. And because of that, there are very few clients that support it. And I do see some clients attempting TLS connections to my gopher server, and it clutters the logs with garbage attempts.
  - mattlondon 5y ago
    I think it is a bit of a chicken and an egg problem. There are a few Gopher+ servers out there (pygopherd gas Gopher+ support for example, which is reasonably widely used), and the Gopher+ protocol is pretty flexible and designed with the metaverse in mind originally (see GopherVR from the original authors). It is a shame that a lot of current Gopher users seem to be strongly against anything apart from standard Gopher, when the original authors of the protocol had much grander ideas for interactivity & visual interfaces. Sigh. For anyone interested, the Gopher+ protocol doc never made it to a proper RFC, but is on github in a hyper-linked format to make it easier to read: https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gopherplus.md https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gop... https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gopherplus.md#25-gopher-item-attribute-information https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gop... specifically mentions 3D representations of Gopherspace. They also provide provision for a "general purpose" scripting language - I think Javascript would fit the bill - there and in section 2.8
  - kovac 5y ago
    A little off topic, but which gopher server (and any management tools? ) do you use for hosting? I'm in the process of setting up one and trying different ones out but haven't settled on one yet.
    - spc476 5y ago
      I wrote my own gopher server [1] that works for me. I haven't looked at any other gopher servers in any detail to give a recommendation (unless you want to use the one I wrote). [1] https://github.com/spc476/port70 https://github.com/spc476/port70

by spc476 5y ago

kovac 5y ago

Isn't keeping 3rd party stuff like TLS out of the core protocol a good thing? Regarding breaking existing clients in a catastrophic way, I think the server could send an error response to the client that don't support TLS (which is defined in the protocol so the clients should understand the error) if it doesn't want to serve some content without encryption or serve content over port 70 over plain text otherwise? I don't see why old clients are a show stopper there.

spc476 5y ago
Know your market. There's a substantial number of people who use gopher from older computers (think of retro computing). Also, error reporting in the gopher protocol is terrible at best.

mattlondon 5y ago

Gopher+ makes knowing to use TLS trivial. Most modern clients default to using TLS and failover to plain text as far as I know.

spc476 5y ago
There are very few, if any Gopher+ servers. And because of that, there are very few clients that support it. And I do see some clients attempting TLS connections to my gopher server, and it clutters the logs with garbage attempts.
- mattlondon 5y ago
  I think it is a bit of a chicken and an egg problem. There are a few Gopher+ servers out there (pygopherd gas Gopher+ support for example, which is reasonably widely used), and the Gopher+ protocol is pretty flexible and designed with the metaverse in mind originally (see GopherVR from the original authors). It is a shame that a lot of current Gopher users seem to be strongly against anything apart from standard Gopher, when the original authors of the protocol had much grander ideas for interactivity & visual interfaces. Sigh. For anyone interested, the Gopher+ protocol doc never made it to a proper RFC, but is on github in a hyper-linked format to make it easier to read: https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gopherplus.md https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gop... https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gopherplus.md#25-gopher-item-attribute-information https://github.com/gopher-protocol/gopher-plus/blob/main/gop... specifically mentions 3D representations of Gopherspace. They also provide provision for a "general purpose" scripting language - I think Javascript would fit the bill - there and in section 2.8
- kovac 5y ago
  A little off topic, but which gopher server (and any management tools? ) do you use for hosting? I'm in the process of setting up one and trying different ones out but haven't settled on one yet.
  - spc476 5y ago
    I wrote my own gopher server [1] that works for me. I haven't looked at any other gopher servers in any detail to give a recommendation (unless you want to use the one I wrote). [1] https://github.com/spc476/port70 https://github.com/spc476/port70