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You buy the right to sell that digital piece - others can copy as they please, but only the owner of the NFT can sell/transfer/destroy it (depending on the cont

by herval 5y ago

You buy the right to sell that digital piece - others can copy as they please, but only the owner of the NFT can sell/transfer/destroy it (depending on the contract, of course). So it’s closer to a “deed” to a digital asset than a “watermark”. Digital art has always been copyable bit for bit, and that property will likely never change. You can’t compare it to a physical painting, and saying clonability invalidates something as art would also invalidate music, video, and any other fork of digital content. You can’t “copy the list of owners” either, not sure where you got that from.

smt88 5y ago
> You buy the right to sell that digital piece - others can copy as they please, but only the owner of the NFT can sell/transfer/destroy it (depending on the contract, of course). You can copy the digital piece and distribute it as much as you want. An NFT is just a record on a blockchain saying that [wallet address] is the current owner of [URL]. It has absolutely nothing to do with ownership. The creator of an NFT can legally create a contract saying "whoever the blockchain says owns [URL] is the owner of [piece of art]," but that is a minority of cases and it also depends on the legal system. Ownership relying on a legal system is not new and it doesn't require NFTs. > saying clonability invalidates something as art would also invalidate music, video, and any other fork of digital content I didn't say clonability invalidates something as art. I said clonability invalidates NFTs as a meaningful form of ownership in and of themselves. > You can’t “copy the list of owners” either, not sure where you got that from. You can sell an NFT of the Mona Lisa. I can also sell it. That means there are two NFT ownership records for Mona Lisa. In fact, there can be infinite ownership records. The only way to tell that a certain ownership chain is the original is by checking timestamps, but that doesn't tell you anything about whether the original seller of the NFT is also the owner of the work of art.
- strogonoff 5y ago
  This reminds me of the case with Simon Stålenhag—when he got hassled by token enthusiasts trying to convince him to join (to lend their space such direly needed credibility), and later found somebody else selling his art as on some NFT marketplace.
  - kranke155 5y ago
    Direly needed credibility ? Not sure when what you’re describing happened. NFTs are in every major art auction house, major world art exhibit (Venice, Basel, etc) In the art world NFTs are now ubiquitous.
    - strogonoff 5y ago
      Well, the reality is that token promoters came to Simon, not Simon to token promoters, so… By the way, care to support with any links at all? So far these are empty words. Googling Venice NFT does not point to some reputable gallery adopting tokens, just a post from some cryptocurrency promoting media outlet about some token promoters who set up their own gallery on a beach.
      - kranke155 5y ago
        https://fadmagazine.com/2021/11/18/nft-now-x-christies-present-the-gateway-at-art-basel-miami/ https://fadmagazine.com/2021/11/18/nft-now-x-christies-prese... https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2021/11/09/tezos-brings-artificial-intelligence-and-nfts-together-at-art-basel-miami-beach https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2021/11/09/tezos-brings-arti... My bad for thinking NFTs were in Venice officially. Here’s a good overview of what’s happening even though it’s an article critizing Frieze London - https://www.google.com/amp/s/decrypt.co/84466/london-nft-scene-thrives-even-as-frieze-art-fair-sits-out%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/decrypt.co/84466/london-nft-sce... There was of course the huge gathering in NYC a short time ago. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/11/05/technology/nft-nyc-metaverse.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/11/05/tech... Christie’s, Sotheby’s are selling NFTs. The art fairs are adopting. Visa has purchased a major NFT for their art collection (Cryptopunk). Multiple major brands and celebrities are minting and joining NFT platforms ie Pharell in Music. As far as artists go I’m finding that most have heard of NFTs and many are adopting.
        strogonoff 5y ago
        So why are you personally spending so much energy on here trying to convince everyone NFTs are worthwhile, if you believe it is established reality?
- herval 5y ago
  > An NFT is just a record on a blockchain saying that [wallet address] is the current owner of [URL]. It has absolutely nothing to do with ownership. That’s literally a _record of ownership_. > You can sell an NFT of the Mona Lisa. I can also sell it. That means there are two NFT ownership records for Mona Lisa. You don’t seem to grasp the concept of digital content. The Mona Lisa you sell as part of contract A is not the same you sell as part of contract B. Even if you’re selling two exactly identical jpegs, they’re different _digital objects_. Very simple example: there’s many clones of the Bored Apes across many blockchains, including Ethereum itself. Only ONE of these contracts grants you access to their bar in Miami. That person is also the only one who can sell their Bored Ape for hundreds of thousands of dollars - nobody will pay that for the copies in other contracts, because _they’re not the original_. How is that not a proof of ownership?
  - acjohnson55 5y ago
    Ownership of an NFT is, in general,, ownership of the token, no more, no less. The creator of the artwork could legally assign rights to the tokenholder. But that would be a special case, and that is extra. Anyone is free to give privileges to tokenholders of specific contract that they recognize as authentic, but that is not the same as ownership of the artwork.
    - herval 5y ago
      Correct. Ownership is an ambiguous concept, when you “own” something, it comes with terms of what that “ownership” entails. An NFT is an entry in a ledger that says who owns that entry - it’s a _proof of ownership_, not _ownership itself_. Whether that includes copyright ownership of the artwork, right to modify or distribute, etc, it’s all contractual aspects that are external to the ledger/entry. Smart Contract maximalists may argue it should all be code - and maybe we’ll see more and more becoming code, including TOS, DRM, etc. Maybe one day there’ll be a way to fully model and enforce ownership of a digital object, but I’m not holding my breath for that.
  - soco 5y ago
    How do you decide which of the many proofs of ownership are The Proof Of Ownership? By asking the Bored Apes bar folks? How do you know if they're the right owners? What if I open a Bored Apes bar in Tampa and let people in only based on another copy?

by herval 5y ago

smt88 5y ago

> You buy the right to sell that digital piece - others can copy as they please, but only the owner of the NFT can sell/transfer/destroy it (depending on the contract, of course). You can copy the digital piece and distribute it as much as you want. An NFT is just a record on a blockchain saying that [wallet address] is the current owner of [URL]. It has absolutely nothing to do with ownership. The creator of an NFT can legally create a contract saying "whoever the blockchain says owns [URL] is the owner of [piece of art]," but that is a minority of cases and it also depends on the legal system. Ownership relying on a legal system is not new and it doesn't require NFTs. > saying clonability invalidates something as art would also invalidate music, video, and any other fork of digital content I didn't say clonability invalidates something as art. I said clonability invalidates NFTs as a meaningful form of ownership in and of themselves. > You can’t “copy the list of owners” either, not sure where you got that from. You can sell an NFT of the Mona Lisa. I can also sell it. That means there are two NFT ownership records for Mona Lisa. In fact, there can be infinite ownership records. The only way to tell that a certain ownership chain is the original is by checking timestamps, but that doesn't tell you anything about whether the original seller of the NFT is also the owner of the work of art.

strogonoff 5y ago
This reminds me of the case with Simon Stålenhag—when he got hassled by token enthusiasts trying to convince him to join (to lend their space such direly needed credibility), and later found somebody else selling his art as on some NFT marketplace.
- kranke155 5y ago
  Direly needed credibility ? Not sure when what you’re describing happened. NFTs are in every major art auction house, major world art exhibit (Venice, Basel, etc) In the art world NFTs are now ubiquitous.
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    Well, the reality is that token promoters came to Simon, not Simon to token promoters, so… By the way, care to support with any links at all? So far these are empty words. Googling Venice NFT does not point to some reputable gallery adopting tokens, just a post from some cryptocurrency promoting media outlet about some token promoters who set up their own gallery on a beach.
    - kranke155 5y ago
      https://fadmagazine.com/2021/11/18/nft-now-x-christies-present-the-gateway-at-art-basel-miami/ https://fadmagazine.com/2021/11/18/nft-now-x-christies-prese... https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2021/11/09/tezos-brings-artificial-intelligence-and-nfts-together-at-art-basel-miami-beach https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2021/11/09/tezos-brings-arti... My bad for thinking NFTs were in Venice officially. Here’s a good overview of what’s happening even though it’s an article critizing Frieze London - https://www.google.com/amp/s/decrypt.co/84466/london-nft-scene-thrives-even-as-frieze-art-fair-sits-out%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/decrypt.co/84466/london-nft-sce... There was of course the huge gathering in NYC a short time ago. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/11/05/technology/nft-nyc-metaverse.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2021/11/05/tech... Christie’s, Sotheby’s are selling NFTs. The art fairs are adopting. Visa has purchased a major NFT for their art collection (Cryptopunk). Multiple major brands and celebrities are minting and joining NFT platforms ie Pharell in Music. As far as artists go I’m finding that most have heard of NFTs and many are adopting.
      - strogonoff 5y ago
        So why are you personally spending so much energy on here trying to convince everyone NFTs are worthwhile, if you believe it is established reality?
herval 5y ago
> An NFT is just a record on a blockchain saying that [wallet address] is the current owner of [URL]. It has absolutely nothing to do with ownership. That’s literally a _record of ownership_. > You can sell an NFT of the Mona Lisa. I can also sell it. That means there are two NFT ownership records for Mona Lisa. You don’t seem to grasp the concept of digital content. The Mona Lisa you sell as part of contract A is not the same you sell as part of contract B. Even if you’re selling two exactly identical jpegs, they’re different _digital objects_. Very simple example: there’s many clones of the Bored Apes across many blockchains, including Ethereum itself. Only ONE of these contracts grants you access to their bar in Miami. That person is also the only one who can sell their Bored Ape for hundreds of thousands of dollars - nobody will pay that for the copies in other contracts, because _they’re not the original_. How is that not a proof of ownership?
- acjohnson55 5y ago
  Ownership of an NFT is, in general,, ownership of the token, no more, no less. The creator of the artwork could legally assign rights to the tokenholder. But that would be a special case, and that is extra. Anyone is free to give privileges to tokenholders of specific contract that they recognize as authentic, but that is not the same as ownership of the artwork.
  - herval 5y ago
    Correct. Ownership is an ambiguous concept, when you “own” something, it comes with terms of what that “ownership” entails. An NFT is an entry in a ledger that says who owns that entry - it’s a _proof of ownership_, not _ownership itself_. Whether that includes copyright ownership of the artwork, right to modify or distribute, etc, it’s all contractual aspects that are external to the ledger/entry. Smart Contract maximalists may argue it should all be code - and maybe we’ll see more and more becoming code, including TOS, DRM, etc. Maybe one day there’ll be a way to fully model and enforce ownership of a digital object, but I’m not holding my breath for that.
- soco 5y ago
  How do you decide which of the many proofs of ownership are The Proof Of Ownership? By asking the Bored Apes bar folks? How do you know if they're the right owners? What if I open a Bored Apes bar in Tampa and let people in only based on another copy?