6 ms·

And neither does the Blockchain have provenance of... anything really.

by malermeister 5y ago

gruez 5y ago
But at least some of the NFTs are endorsed by the artists themselves?
chrisco255 5y ago
Of course it does. Go try and right click save a Bitcoin and sell it on Coinbase or Gemini.
- malermeister 5y ago
  Not sure how that's related to art though. Of course a self-referential system is good for internal consistency. The issue comes with trying to use it for anything outside the system, such as monkey jpegs.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    Not at all. It clearly works just fine as the marketplace volume suggests. Go right click save a CryptoPunk and try and sell it. Go make a BAYC clone and try and sell it. Try it out on chain, deploy your own copy of the smart contract. Or go and create a website and set up a Paypal account and try to sell some JPEGs. Let me know how that works out. Even if you succeed in making money, like selling a fake Gucci purse, you'd only succeed in increasing the clout of the original.
    - mdoms 5y ago
      Most rational people argue that NFTs are a bubble/mania. Your argument that it's not because people are throwing wild amounts of money at them does nothing to convince us otherwise.
      - chrisco255 5y ago
        That's a loaded opinion. A lot of people said the same about Bitcoin, the internet, social media, electric cars, and mobile apps. My argument is that the system works just fine as a plausibly neutral ledger of account and for establishing provenance of ownership through reputation and convention. And in fact I very much prefer it to the legions of corporate lawyers enforcing man-made copyright laws and enriching monopolistic centrally distributed platforms such as app stores. I consider it much more sustainable, universal, accessible, and respectful of human rights and expression than the current systems in place.
    - malermeister 5y ago
      I think we're talking past one another. I'm sure there's plenty of ways to make money by flipping various crypto assets. Where we disagree is our value judgement of that. I just don't see that as being useful per se, imo there's enough ways to move numbers around using computers already, a novel one can't really get me all that excited, especially considering its resource cost. I have yet to see a good argument for crypto that doesn't boil down to that. I think it's one of those "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" scenarios. Marketplace volume isn't a good in itself if the markets don't do anything useful and waste a bunch of energy, but to people bought into crypto and capitalism really deeply it seems to be enough to get excited.
capableweb 5y ago
The blockchains have provenance of themselves and the space within them, which is exactly what the NFT represents. Nothing more, nothing less.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  Right, and the entry in any particular star register's registry is the same thing. They have provenance over their registry, nothing more, nothing less.
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    Clearly not. If an artist with an on-chain reputation such as Beeple creates a digital artwork and mints it on-chain and continues to do so over time and that artist's work becomes sought after, the reputation and history and story of that work being created and minted and transferred is as good as any other form of provenance. What makes the iTunes MP3 marketplace valuable? What makes the Amazon Kindle text file marketplace valuable? Is there something about the virtual nature of NFTs that gets to you in a way that these intangible marketplaces don't? Why does itunes and Kindle not bother you? Because they have an army of lawyers to enforce copyrights and license agreements behind them? Does the convention and reputation-based open source nature of Web3 disturb you?
    - zepto 5y ago
      > What makes the iTunes MP3 marketplace valuable? The music is good, and it’s harder to get them elsewhere. > What makes the Amazon Kindle text file marketplace valuable? The books are good, and it’s harder to get them elsewhere. > Does the convention and reputation-based open source nature of Web3 disturb you? Why would anyone be disturbed by this? I see nothing wrong with people trading tokens. What is disturbing are claims that trading these tokens is equivalent to trading in the associated goods.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      > What makes the iTunes MP3 marketplace valuable? What makes the Amazon Kindle text file marketplace valuable? The law. Copyright law makes acquiring these works via other means slightly more difficult. Like NFTs they are just a failed attempt to force artificial scarcity into a post-scarcity space. > Why does itunes and Kindle not bother you? They do, but they don't have scammers constantly trying to sell their shit as some kind of revolutionary new future you have to get in on before you get left behind!!1! > Does the convention and reputation-based open source nature of Web3 disturb you? What disturbs me is the shift from people viewing artificial scarcity as a desperate grasping at straws from people who can't deal with information post-scarcity to people touting artificial scarcity as the glorious technological future.

And neither does the Blockchain have provenance of... anything really.

gruez 5y ago

But at least some of the NFTs are endorsed by the artists themselves?

chrisco255 5y ago

Of course it does. Go try and right click save a Bitcoin and sell it on Coinbase or Gemini.

malermeister 5y ago
Not sure how that's related to art though. Of course a self-referential system is good for internal consistency. The issue comes with trying to use it for anything outside the system, such as monkey jpegs.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  Not at all. It clearly works just fine as the marketplace volume suggests. Go right click save a CryptoPunk and try and sell it. Go make a BAYC clone and try and sell it. Try it out on chain, deploy your own copy of the smart contract. Or go and create a website and set up a Paypal account and try to sell some JPEGs. Let me know how that works out. Even if you succeed in making money, like selling a fake Gucci purse, you'd only succeed in increasing the clout of the original.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    Most rational people argue that NFTs are a bubble/mania. Your argument that it's not because people are throwing wild amounts of money at them does nothing to convince us otherwise.
    - chrisco255 5y ago
      That's a loaded opinion. A lot of people said the same about Bitcoin, the internet, social media, electric cars, and mobile apps. My argument is that the system works just fine as a plausibly neutral ledger of account and for establishing provenance of ownership through reputation and convention. And in fact I very much prefer it to the legions of corporate lawyers enforcing man-made copyright laws and enriching monopolistic centrally distributed platforms such as app stores. I consider it much more sustainable, universal, accessible, and respectful of human rights and expression than the current systems in place.
  - malermeister 5y ago
    I think we're talking past one another. I'm sure there's plenty of ways to make money by flipping various crypto assets. Where we disagree is our value judgement of that. I just don't see that as being useful per se, imo there's enough ways to move numbers around using computers already, a novel one can't really get me all that excited, especially considering its resource cost. I have yet to see a good argument for crypto that doesn't boil down to that. I think it's one of those "when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail" scenarios. Marketplace volume isn't a good in itself if the markets don't do anything useful and waste a bunch of energy, but to people bought into crypto and capitalism really deeply it seems to be enough to get excited.

capableweb 5y ago

The blockchains have provenance of themselves and the space within them, which is exactly what the NFT represents. Nothing more, nothing less.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
Right, and the entry in any particular star register's registry is the same thing. They have provenance over their registry, nothing more, nothing less.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  Clearly not. If an artist with an on-chain reputation such as Beeple creates a digital artwork and mints it on-chain and continues to do so over time and that artist's work becomes sought after, the reputation and history and story of that work being created and minted and transferred is as good as any other form of provenance. What makes the iTunes MP3 marketplace valuable? What makes the Amazon Kindle text file marketplace valuable? Is there something about the virtual nature of NFTs that gets to you in a way that these intangible marketplaces don't? Why does itunes and Kindle not bother you? Because they have an army of lawyers to enforce copyrights and license agreements behind them? Does the convention and reputation-based open source nature of Web3 disturb you?
  - zepto 5y ago
    > What makes the iTunes MP3 marketplace valuable? The music is good, and it’s harder to get them elsewhere. > What makes the Amazon Kindle text file marketplace valuable? The books are good, and it’s harder to get them elsewhere. > Does the convention and reputation-based open source nature of Web3 disturb you? Why would anyone be disturbed by this? I see nothing wrong with people trading tokens. What is disturbing are claims that trading these tokens is equivalent to trading in the associated goods.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > What makes the iTunes MP3 marketplace valuable? What makes the Amazon Kindle text file marketplace valuable? The law. Copyright law makes acquiring these works via other means slightly more difficult. Like NFTs they are just a failed attempt to force artificial scarcity into a post-scarcity space. > Why does itunes and Kindle not bother you? They do, but they don't have scammers constantly trying to sell their shit as some kind of revolutionary new future you have to get in on before you get left behind!!1! > Does the convention and reputation-based open source nature of Web3 disturb you? What disturbs me is the shift from people viewing artificial scarcity as a desperate grasping at straws from people who can't deal with information post-scarcity to people touting artificial scarcity as the glorious technological future.