6 ms·

If you have finished reading the post by now (seems you are commenting and editing as you go along), I think I make it pretty clear when it gets to more detail

If you have finished reading the post by now (seems you are commenting and editing as you go along), I think I make it pretty clear when it gets to more detail that the NFT is the thing you own, the right to transfer that NFT is the thing of value, and what gives it value is the person and context around who made it in the first place. Further, I make it clear exactly what rights you and others have over the media, which is basically none. Let me know when you make it all the way through, happy to continue the conversation.

zepto 5y ago
> If you have finished reading the post by now (seems you are commenting and editing as you go along), Wrong. > I think I make it pretty clear when it gets to more detail that the NFT is the thing you own. Yes, you contradict yourself. > Further, I make it clear exactly what rights you and others have over the media, which is basically none. Yes, which is not what you say in the parts I quoted - let’s remind ourselves: > Just like a deed conveys ownership of a house at some address, the token conveys ownership of that media. This is a common pattern in writing about this subject, which is why I point this out. It’s a standard Motte and Bailey technique, which is a dishonest form of persuasive writing. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey
- originalcvk 5y ago
  For real estate lawyers, a full understanding of all the laws is important. For someone who might want to buy a house, a rough understanding is sufficient. That's why I provide both. Not everybody needs to know or care about the exact details in order to decide it is worth owning a house. But if they are interested, they can learn. I hope providing both sides of it is seen as useful in that light - it is not self-contradictory to make broad analogies that are useful, then explain exactly in detail where those analogies break down.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > Just like a deed conveys ownership of a house at some address, the token conveys ownership of that media. This is just a lie. The token doesn’t convey ownership of then media. There is no rough understanding by which this is true. > I make it clear exactly what rights you and others have over the media, which is basically none. Which you acknowledge here. This isn’t a matter of exact details that aren’t important to a buyer. If you tell someone that an NFT conveys ownership of the media, you are lying to them and participating in a con. The fact that you later contradict that statement, doesn’t change the fact that you lied.
    - miracle2k 5y ago
      > This is just a lie. The token doesn’t convey ownership of then media. There is no rough understanding by which this is true. The debate around this is pretty somewhat tiresome. Yes, you have to buy into the believe that the token represents the media, but it's as good a definition as any because all ways we talk colloquially about "owning" a JPEG are simply not the same as owning a chair. - Copyright is just a set of limited legal rights granted to someone temporarily by certain jurisdictions. It's not the same thing as owning something, which is why we were laughing at the "you wouldn't steal a car" ads in the 2000s. - Actual ownership means having access to a copy of the bytes, which is not perceived as meaningful, and only valuable to the extend that access is otherwise arbitrarily restricted. - You can choose to believe in the artificial scarcity of a certificate of ownership.
      - zepto 5y ago
        > The debate around this is pretty somewhat tiresome. Yes, you have to buy into the believe that the token represents the media This is fine. There is no problem with a club of people who choose to play a game in which they agree that a token has a particular meaning. The rest of us can point out that it doesn’t mean the same thing outside that club of believers.
      - meheleventyone 5y ago
        Thing is actually assigning IP rights to the owner of the NFT should be trivial as some projects have done. That it’s not done or the IP rights granted are explicitly limited suggests people get that and want to retain ownership of the rights whilst selling the token.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    Please, explain to me what legal rights an NFT-holder asserts over someone that claims ownership of your token. Do any countries respect the blockchain enough to take you seriously?
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    If you own a Meebit NFT it’s actually the extant legal system that determines what that means. https://meebits.larvalabs.com/meebits/termsandconditions https://meebits.larvalabs.com/meebits/termsandconditions And note you don’t own the media and that what owning the NFT means can change.
    - zepto 5y ago
      “(b) Ownership. (i) When you purchase a Meebit, you own only the NFT, not any associated Art. Each Meebit is associated with a non-fungible token (an “NFT”) on the Ethereum blockchain. When you acquire a Meebit, you own the NFT, not the associated Art, or any other Meebits Materials (as that term is defined below), or any Third Party IP.” Not really sure what point you are trying to make. With Meebits, you don’t own anything other than the token itself.
      - meheleventyone 5y ago
        That’s what I said and the point I was making is that this is a bog standard contract.
  - UncleMeat 5y ago
    State employed officials with guns will show up and remove you from a house if you are living in it without permission from the person who owns the deed. That is ownership. There is no thing that another person can do regarding a piece of art backed by an NFT that you own that will cause state employees with guns to show up to stop them.
- gfodor 5y ago
  Unless you own the NFT, you can’t hang up the piece in cryptovoxels. That is ownership.
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    But owning the NFT is not 1-to-1 with having the right to redistribute or having the right to transfer the right to redistribute. Are you keeping track of which NFTs confer copyright with the purchase? Or are you leaving it to the honor system? In which case, what is the NFT providing?
  - throwaway1777 5y ago
    Giving cryptovoxels a little too much credit. Its one digital museum but there can be infinite other ways to display nfts.
    - gfodor 5y ago
      Correct, my point wasn’t to emphasize cryptovoxels but provide an existence proof where holding an NFT confers unique rights. There are many others.
      - zepto 5y ago
        This kind of conferring of unique rights is nothing to do with NFTs. For example, I can offer a free milkshake to anyone who parks in my parking lot in a yellow car. Then yellow car isn’t doing anything in this situation, I am, and if I can always change my mind. Then same is true with cryptovoxels and NFTs.
        gfodor 5y ago
        It has as much to do with NFTs as your example has to do with your parking lot, which is not nothing. The point is if 1M people all agreed to give a free milkshake to people who parked in your parking lot, the parking lot is pretty important.
floatboth 5y ago
> what gives it value is the person and context around who made it in the first place BS. That’s the marketing excuse. The real value is only in the fact that you can potentially sell it to a greater fool who will buy for more so you won’t be the one holding the bag. It’s the new tulip mania!

zepto 5y ago

> If you have finished reading the post by now (seems you are commenting and editing as you go along), Wrong. > I think I make it pretty clear when it gets to more detail that the NFT is the thing you own. Yes, you contradict yourself. > Further, I make it clear exactly what rights you and others have over the media, which is basically none. Yes, which is not what you say in the parts I quoted - let’s remind ourselves: > Just like a deed conveys ownership of a house at some address, the token conveys ownership of that media. This is a common pattern in writing about this subject, which is why I point this out. It’s a standard Motte and Bailey technique, which is a dishonest form of persuasive writing. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

originalcvk 5y ago
For real estate lawyers, a full understanding of all the laws is important. For someone who might want to buy a house, a rough understanding is sufficient. That's why I provide both. Not everybody needs to know or care about the exact details in order to decide it is worth owning a house. But if they are interested, they can learn. I hope providing both sides of it is seen as useful in that light - it is not self-contradictory to make broad analogies that are useful, then explain exactly in detail where those analogies break down.
- zepto 5y ago
  > Just like a deed conveys ownership of a house at some address, the token conveys ownership of that media. This is just a lie. The token doesn’t convey ownership of then media. There is no rough understanding by which this is true. > I make it clear exactly what rights you and others have over the media, which is basically none. Which you acknowledge here. This isn’t a matter of exact details that aren’t important to a buyer. If you tell someone that an NFT conveys ownership of the media, you are lying to them and participating in a con. The fact that you later contradict that statement, doesn’t change the fact that you lied.
  - miracle2k 5y ago
    > This is just a lie. The token doesn’t convey ownership of then media. There is no rough understanding by which this is true. The debate around this is pretty somewhat tiresome. Yes, you have to buy into the believe that the token represents the media, but it's as good a definition as any because all ways we talk colloquially about "owning" a JPEG are simply not the same as owning a chair. - Copyright is just a set of limited legal rights granted to someone temporarily by certain jurisdictions. It's not the same thing as owning something, which is why we were laughing at the "you wouldn't steal a car" ads in the 2000s. - Actual ownership means having access to a copy of the bytes, which is not perceived as meaningful, and only valuable to the extend that access is otherwise arbitrarily restricted. - You can choose to believe in the artificial scarcity of a certificate of ownership.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > The debate around this is pretty somewhat tiresome. Yes, you have to buy into the believe that the token represents the media This is fine. There is no problem with a club of people who choose to play a game in which they agree that a token has a particular meaning. The rest of us can point out that it doesn’t mean the same thing outside that club of believers.
    - meheleventyone 5y ago
      Thing is actually assigning IP rights to the owner of the NFT should be trivial as some projects have done. That it’s not done or the IP rights granted are explicitly limited suggests people get that and want to retain ownership of the rights whilst selling the token.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  Please, explain to me what legal rights an NFT-holder asserts over someone that claims ownership of your token. Do any countries respect the blockchain enough to take you seriously?
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  If you own a Meebit NFT it’s actually the extant legal system that determines what that means. https://meebits.larvalabs.com/meebits/termsandconditions https://meebits.larvalabs.com/meebits/termsandconditions And note you don’t own the media and that what owning the NFT means can change.
  - zepto 5y ago
    “(b) Ownership. (i) When you purchase a Meebit, you own only the NFT, not any associated Art. Each Meebit is associated with a non-fungible token (an “NFT”) on the Ethereum blockchain. When you acquire a Meebit, you own the NFT, not the associated Art, or any other Meebits Materials (as that term is defined below), or any Third Party IP.” Not really sure what point you are trying to make. With Meebits, you don’t own anything other than the token itself.
    - meheleventyone 5y ago
      That’s what I said and the point I was making is that this is a bog standard contract.
- UncleMeat 5y ago
  State employed officials with guns will show up and remove you from a house if you are living in it without permission from the person who owns the deed. That is ownership. There is no thing that another person can do regarding a piece of art backed by an NFT that you own that will cause state employees with guns to show up to stop them.
gfodor 5y ago
Unless you own the NFT, you can’t hang up the piece in cryptovoxels. That is ownership.
- moron4hire 5y ago
  But owning the NFT is not 1-to-1 with having the right to redistribute or having the right to transfer the right to redistribute. Are you keeping track of which NFTs confer copyright with the purchase? Or are you leaving it to the honor system? In which case, what is the NFT providing?
- throwaway1777 5y ago
  Giving cryptovoxels a little too much credit. Its one digital museum but there can be infinite other ways to display nfts.
  - gfodor 5y ago
    Correct, my point wasn’t to emphasize cryptovoxels but provide an existence proof where holding an NFT confers unique rights. There are many others.
    - zepto 5y ago
      This kind of conferring of unique rights is nothing to do with NFTs. For example, I can offer a free milkshake to anyone who parks in my parking lot in a yellow car. Then yellow car isn’t doing anything in this situation, I am, and if I can always change my mind. Then same is true with cryptovoxels and NFTs.
      - gfodor 5y ago
        It has as much to do with NFTs as your example has to do with your parking lot, which is not nothing. The point is if 1M people all agreed to give a free milkshake to people who parked in your parking lot, the parking lot is pretty important.

floatboth 5y ago

> what gives it value is the person and context around who made it in the first place BS. That’s the marketing excuse. The real value is only in the fact that you can potentially sell it to a greater fool who will buy for more so you won’t be the one holding the bag. It’s the new tulip mania!