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Yet we are machines...? Speaking specifically of neural networks as they exist now the answer is no because there is no obvious way to learn.

by R0b0t1 5y ago

sgt101 5y ago
Are machines all computation? Are all the processes of the physical universe computation?
- mcguire 5y ago
  If you are a materialist, yes and yes. If not, all bets are off and there are no rules.
  - NineStarPoint 5y ago
    I don’t think being a materialist implies that. It’s entirely possible for matter/the fabric of the universe to have non-computable properties.
    - R0b0t1 5y ago
      Computers exist inside the universe so the universe must be able to compute things. Likewise you can look for certain hallmarks of information manipulation that mean you are computing something. Usually philosophers talking about these things either haven't read or are just discovering complexity theory.
      - sgt101 5y ago
        >Computers exist inside the universe so the universe must be able to compute things. Yes - but there may be other mechanisms of translating information into outcomes that are possible in the universe as well. I don't know any though.
        R0b0t1 5y ago
        Yes, obviously, but those things are computation.
        sgt101 5y ago
        Ahh - no; some of them are uncomputable in the sense that a u.turing machine cannot calculate them. For example no-repeat tiling.
  - sgt101 5y ago
    but there are conceivable processes that are beyond computation, for example Busy Beavers - but could they manifest in the physical universe?
    - sgt101 5y ago
      I've done some more work - apparently nonperiodic tiling is uncomputable. This is used to make toilet roll more compressed (that's why the sheets don't line up) and that must count as a manifestation of the uncomputable in our physical universe. I think this is a reasonable proof that the physical universe is uncomputable.
- ChainOfFools 5y ago
  all of these discussions eventually reveal themselves to be special framing of the old Parmenides question about determinism, whether we live in a block universe where choice and change are illusions, and thought and being are the same. I am increasingly convinced he is right, and that arguments such as the OP (and Searle-ism generally) present end up refuting not the existence of artificial intelligence, but intelligence itself. "Artificial" smuggles in naturalistic fallacy and privileges the dualism hypothesis.

Yet we are machines...? Speaking specifically of neural networks as they exist now the answer is no because there is no obvious way to learn.

by R0b0t1 5y ago

Yet we are machines...? Speaking specifically of neural networks as they exist now the answer is no because there is no obvious way to learn.

sgt101 5y ago

Are machines all computation? Are all the processes of the physical universe computation?

mcguire 5y ago
If you are a materialist, yes and yes. If not, all bets are off and there are no rules.
- NineStarPoint 5y ago
  I don’t think being a materialist implies that. It’s entirely possible for matter/the fabric of the universe to have non-computable properties.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    Computers exist inside the universe so the universe must be able to compute things. Likewise you can look for certain hallmarks of information manipulation that mean you are computing something. Usually philosophers talking about these things either haven't read or are just discovering complexity theory.
    - sgt101 5y ago
      >Computers exist inside the universe so the universe must be able to compute things. Yes - but there may be other mechanisms of translating information into outcomes that are possible in the universe as well. I don't know any though.
      - R0b0t1 5y ago
        Yes, obviously, but those things are computation.
        sgt101 5y ago
        Ahh - no; some of them are uncomputable in the sense that a u.turing machine cannot calculate them. For example no-repeat tiling.
- sgt101 5y ago
  but there are conceivable processes that are beyond computation, for example Busy Beavers - but could they manifest in the physical universe?
  - sgt101 5y ago
    I've done some more work - apparently nonperiodic tiling is uncomputable. This is used to make toilet roll more compressed (that's why the sheets don't line up) and that must count as a manifestation of the uncomputable in our physical universe. I think this is a reasonable proof that the physical universe is uncomputable.
ChainOfFools 5y ago
all of these discussions eventually reveal themselves to be special framing of the old Parmenides question about determinism, whether we live in a block universe where choice and change are illusions, and thought and being are the same. I am increasingly convinced he is right, and that arguments such as the OP (and Searle-ism generally) present end up refuting not the existence of artificial intelligence, but intelligence itself. "Artificial" smuggles in naturalistic fallacy and privileges the dualism hypothesis.