5 ms·

The OP referenced CPUs and for at least AMD and Intel CPUs, firmware blobs need to be signed.

KingMachiavelli 5y ago
In theory a government could force AMD or Intel to sign a malicious firmware. That could be distributed as the normal firmware or used to target a specific person. Firmware that ships with the actual CPU is a bit 'safer' because it has a lot more users and eyes looking at it (sort of). Depends on what your attack vector is. Another aspect is that while this policy is worse for Linux-libre users, it is sort of a protest against needing these binary blobs. The hope is certainly that adoption of Linux-libre would result in AMD/Intel not having these non-free software requirements.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  Nobody is looking at Intel's microcode mask ROM. It's in ROM. You can't even look at it. Microcode is a bad example because the updates are encrypted too, but for the vast majority of the blobs that the FSF hates so much, at least you can look at them and audit them with a disassembler. Meanwhile, the devices with giant firmware ROMs that they openly endorse are not auditable, as you can't see the blob. This policy is making it easier for manufacturers to ship backdoors that will never be detected.
  - medo-bear 5y ago
    so after so many posts this is the only one that expresses your point clearly. notice how it does not contain any FUD to the said point, this is definitely a VALID security concern. FSF needs to make these concerns clear. you seem to be very invested in this matter. have you raised these concerns with them? EDIT: having thought about it some more. doesnt isolating blobs to ROMs restrict the problems to ROMs? i mean non-RYF certified hardware already has this problem. the strategy might them be to focus efforts on opening up ROMs. note that this is simply a question. i am not an expert in this field but i am trying to form an informed opinion
    - marcan_42 5y ago
      Lots of people have tried to raise concerns such as this one with them. They've stopped listening.
    - alexvoda 5y ago
      People have raised these concerns. I have personally raised this concern directly to RMS at one of his conferences. It gets ignored. I believe it is for the same reason religions ignore issues. The FSF totally acts as a religion. The church of his Gnusance St. Ignutiutus. And just like religions it pretends to hold an ethical position while making compromises for practical reasons. Compare religions claiming: - Killing is bad, unless it's about opponents in war. - Slavery is bad, unless it's outsiders who are slaves. - Blobs are bad, unless they are stored on chip flash. The FSF gets criticized precisely for this hypocrisy. And just like religions ignore criticism about their inconsistencies so does the FSF.
      - medo-bear 5y ago
        >The FSF totally acts as a religion. The church of his Gnusance St. Ignutiutus. And just like religions it pretends to hold an ethical position while making compromises for practical reasons. so is FSF dogmatic or is it practical? surely they cant be both
        jrm4 5y ago
        It's definitely both -- it's just that the dogma is broad, and they appear to very carefully and intelligently choose battles. The dogma is "long term software freedom." This includes occasionally accepting that there are battles not worth fighting (or better yet, fighting strategically.) A really simple example is GPL violations. Pure dogma would require that they try to fight a whole lot of them, since they occur all the time and they're clearly in the legal right. But they don't, and that's the MUCH SMARTER way to go. Why this Guix thing strikes me as smart is that it's about "reinforcing modularity." They can't free up EVERYTHING, but they can make the software work different so that it's harder to pretend that everything is all the same.

In theory a government could force AMD or Intel to sign a malicious firmware. That could be distributed as the normal firmware or used to target a specific person. Firmware that ships with the actual CPU is a bit 'safer' because it has a lot more users and eyes looking at it (sort of). Depends on what your attack vector is. Another aspect is that while this policy is worse for Linux-libre users, it is sort of a protest against needing these binary blobs. The hope is certainly that adoption of Linux-libre would result in AMD/Intel not having these non-free software requirements.

marcan_42 5y ago
Nobody is looking at Intel's microcode mask ROM. It's in ROM. You can't even look at it. Microcode is a bad example because the updates are encrypted too, but for the vast majority of the blobs that the FSF hates so much, at least you can look at them and audit them with a disassembler. Meanwhile, the devices with giant firmware ROMs that they openly endorse are not auditable, as you can't see the blob. This policy is making it easier for manufacturers to ship backdoors that will never be detected.
- medo-bear 5y ago
  so after so many posts this is the only one that expresses your point clearly. notice how it does not contain any FUD to the said point, this is definitely a VALID security concern. FSF needs to make these concerns clear. you seem to be very invested in this matter. have you raised these concerns with them? EDIT: having thought about it some more. doesnt isolating blobs to ROMs restrict the problems to ROMs? i mean non-RYF certified hardware already has this problem. the strategy might them be to focus efforts on opening up ROMs. note that this is simply a question. i am not an expert in this field but i am trying to form an informed opinion
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    Lots of people have tried to raise concerns such as this one with them. They've stopped listening.
  - alexvoda 5y ago
    People have raised these concerns. I have personally raised this concern directly to RMS at one of his conferences. It gets ignored. I believe it is for the same reason religions ignore issues. The FSF totally acts as a religion. The church of his Gnusance St. Ignutiutus. And just like religions it pretends to hold an ethical position while making compromises for practical reasons. Compare religions claiming: - Killing is bad, unless it's about opponents in war. - Slavery is bad, unless it's outsiders who are slaves. - Blobs are bad, unless they are stored on chip flash. The FSF gets criticized precisely for this hypocrisy. And just like religions ignore criticism about their inconsistencies so does the FSF.
    - medo-bear 5y ago
      >The FSF totally acts as a religion. The church of his Gnusance St. Ignutiutus. And just like religions it pretends to hold an ethical position while making compromises for practical reasons. so is FSF dogmatic or is it practical? surely they cant be both
      - jrm4 5y ago
        It's definitely both -- it's just that the dogma is broad, and they appear to very carefully and intelligently choose battles. The dogma is "long term software freedom." This includes occasionally accepting that there are battles not worth fighting (or better yet, fighting strategically.) A really simple example is GPL violations. Pure dogma would require that they try to fight a whole lot of them, since they occur all the time and they're clearly in the legal right. But they don't, and that's the MUCH SMARTER way to go. Why this Guix thing strikes me as smart is that it's about "reinforcing modularity." They can't free up EVERYTHING, but they can make the software work different so that it's harder to pretend that everything is all the same.