4 ms·

Why can’t I just use a message signed with my existing private key to access my car? Why does Tesla need to have servers in the middle?

bdonlan 5y ago
Tesla cars support: * Unlock by NFC keycard * Unlock by bluetooth using the app * Remote start by app (over the cell network) AIUI the latter was down. I don't think the bluetooth would be down - that one works even without cell service - but I didn't try it during the time of the outage. Regardless, you really should carry the keycard around just in case your cellphone runs out of batteries or something.
- eropple 5y ago
  This is absolutely bonkers to me. Why does a car need electronics at all to open the door? Were they not bored enough in design? My car has keyless fob-proximity entry and a key if the fob, or the car, runs out of battery power. Like a car does.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Making access to a vehicle dependent on a cloud service also adds security vulnerabilities that didn't exist before to real world objects. Perhaps Tesla should partner with the MPAA to create a public service announcement about this. I can imagine: "You wouldn't steal a web server..."
  - shiftpgdn 5y ago
    It’s not dependent. You have a physical keycard that lets you start and drive the car. The app also lets you start and drive the car with no internet over Bluetooth. The only thing not working here was the OTA remote administration of the car. The article is misleading.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      You're right, I apologise. I (meant and) should have said something like "making the car's security dependent on", in the sense of a weakest link, or additional attack surface.
- tyingq 5y ago
  If the bluetooth works, I'm surprised the app wouldn't automatically switch to that when the RPC cloud call fails.
  - numpad 5y ago
    As far as I understand, the users could not open the app at all - because it could not connect to Teslas servers.
    - tyingq 5y ago
      Interesting. Seems like that would be an everyday issue...plenty of dead spots in cell coverage, underground parking garages, etc. Or perhaps they check for "no network", but not "network is there, endpoint is borked".
    - cloudwalking 5y ago
      The Bluetooth unlock worked fine during this outage. The only feature unavailable was “remote unlock/start” where the user is not within Bluetooth range of the car.
eropple 5y ago
Why can’t you use a key to turn a lock?
- mnd999 5y ago
  It’s an electric car, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to have an electronic security system tied to locks, alarm and immobiliser. If there’s no power you’re not going anywhere anyway.
  - eropple 5y ago
    If there’s no power, you still need to be able to get in or out of the car. It doesn’t matter if the 12V or the HV electronics are failed: you cannot leave somebody with only breaking a window as the method of ingress or egress from a physically intact vehicle. It is genuinely mystifying.
    - bdonlan 5y ago
      There's a mechanical door handle on the interior. If you run out of batteries completely and need to get in the procedure is: 1. Open a small panel on the front and apply 12V to the emergency cables to unlock the frunk (this only works if the car is powered off as I understand) 2. Jumpstart the car's low voltage battery, located under a panel under the frunk 3. Unlock and open the door normally 4. Attach an EVSE charger to get the HV back online as well
      - Someone1234 5y ago
        > There's a mechanical door handle on the interior. Only the front doors in the Model Y[0] and Tesla warns using them "May cause damage to the window trim." [0] https://i.redd.it/aicn8uafkto41.png https://i.redd.it/aicn8uafkto41.png
- ip26 5y ago
  As a matter of practice, no one would carry a physical, metal key they use once a year. The key-card tackles this problem. It can be tucked away in a wallet.

bdonlan 5y ago

Tesla cars support: * Unlock by NFC keycard * Unlock by bluetooth using the app * Remote start by app (over the cell network) AIUI the latter was down. I don't think the bluetooth would be down - that one works even without cell service - but I didn't try it during the time of the outage. Regardless, you really should carry the keycard around just in case your cellphone runs out of batteries or something.

eropple 5y ago
This is absolutely bonkers to me. Why does a car need electronics at all to open the door? Were they not bored enough in design? My car has keyless fob-proximity entry and a key if the fob, or the car, runs out of battery power. Like a car does.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dane-pgp 5y ago
Making access to a vehicle dependent on a cloud service also adds security vulnerabilities that didn't exist before to real world objects. Perhaps Tesla should partner with the MPAA to create a public service announcement about this. I can imagine: "You wouldn't steal a web server..."
- shiftpgdn 5y ago
  It’s not dependent. You have a physical keycard that lets you start and drive the car. The app also lets you start and drive the car with no internet over Bluetooth. The only thing not working here was the OTA remote administration of the car. The article is misleading.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    You're right, I apologise. I (meant and) should have said something like "making the car's security dependent on", in the sense of a weakest link, or additional attack surface.
tyingq 5y ago
If the bluetooth works, I'm surprised the app wouldn't automatically switch to that when the RPC cloud call fails.
- numpad 5y ago
  As far as I understand, the users could not open the app at all - because it could not connect to Teslas servers.
  - tyingq 5y ago
    Interesting. Seems like that would be an everyday issue...plenty of dead spots in cell coverage, underground parking garages, etc. Or perhaps they check for "no network", but not "network is there, endpoint is borked".
  - cloudwalking 5y ago
    The Bluetooth unlock worked fine during this outage. The only feature unavailable was “remote unlock/start” where the user is not within Bluetooth range of the car.

eropple 5y ago

Why can’t you use a key to turn a lock?

mnd999 5y ago
It’s an electric car, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to have an electronic security system tied to locks, alarm and immobiliser. If there’s no power you’re not going anywhere anyway.
- eropple 5y ago
  If there’s no power, you still need to be able to get in or out of the car. It doesn’t matter if the 12V or the HV electronics are failed: you cannot leave somebody with only breaking a window as the method of ingress or egress from a physically intact vehicle. It is genuinely mystifying.
  - bdonlan 5y ago
    There's a mechanical door handle on the interior. If you run out of batteries completely and need to get in the procedure is: 1. Open a small panel on the front and apply 12V to the emergency cables to unlock the frunk (this only works if the car is powered off as I understand) 2. Jumpstart the car's low voltage battery, located under a panel under the frunk 3. Unlock and open the door normally 4. Attach an EVSE charger to get the HV back online as well
    - Someone1234 5y ago
      > There's a mechanical door handle on the interior. Only the front doors in the Model Y[0] and Tesla warns using them "May cause damage to the window trim." [0] https://i.redd.it/aicn8uafkto41.png https://i.redd.it/aicn8uafkto41.png
ip26 5y ago
As a matter of practice, no one would carry a physical, metal key they use once a year. The key-card tackles this problem. It can be tucked away in a wallet.