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There's so much bad policy in the USA that sucks, especially when compared to some European countries, but one thing the USA has done relatively well at is crea

There's so much bad policy in the USA that sucks, especially when compared to some European countries, but one thing the USA has done relatively well at is creating lots of public land and the creating these trails. I hiked a section of the PCT starting at a paved road (mile 652 of the trail) and didn't cross another paved road until 290 miles of hiking later. I tear up with gratitude for the vision of the people who worked to protect the land and create the trail. Also, sure, there is awesome gorgeous hiking in Europe too of course, but, say, in the Alps, mostly it's managed more tightly. You can't just hike for the day and set up a tent where you get tired. Camping is much more restricted to right next to the huts/refuges or not allowed at all. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Trails_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Trails_System

helmholtz 5y ago
Yep, hiking in the alps is largely a hut-to-hut sort of affair. It's picture perfect, jaw droppingly so, but it is crowded, tamed and sterile. Goats are about the wildest thing you see.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Only if you do few most touristic places in whole range of alps. Most of it is quiet and you will meet few people a day. But sure if you pick one of the most popular hikes in alps then its surprisingly crowded, especially in the summer. Autumn is far superior time for Alps hiking (colors, temperatures, weather). Also don't get that camping restrictions rant in this thread - you can camp literally everywhere outside of natural reserve. If its private property and you have somebody to ask then ask for permission. Otherwise be polite, quiet, don't leave anything after you and that's it. I've been doing it for last 10 years almost every weekend weather permitting, never any issue. Outside of proper alpinism / skialpinism never used huts.
  - la_fayette 5y ago
    You can do it and get away with it, however it is absolutely forbidden in central europe, except Switzerland... biwaking is only allowed in emergency situations. If you are caught you might have to pay high fines...
    - FDSGSG 5y ago
      You will never be "caught" unless you camp somewhere inappropriate or make a mess
nend 5y ago
Part of the reason for restrictions is because the popularity of the area overwhelms the natural area and causes too much human impact, thus restrictions get put in place so the area can be protected. I for one would love to see more permitting used in the white mountains.
- ctrager 5y ago
  Yes, I should make it clear that the freedom on the PCT, in the Sierra, is limited to people who have a permit. You can't just show up and camp overnight; you need to get a permit in advance and the quantity of permits is limited to protect the area and the experience. I don't know the White Mountains but here's a place that I've been that is going to start requiring permits: https://aspenjournalism.org/maroon-bells-snowmass-wilderness-overnight-overuse-continues-to-increase/ https://aspenjournalism.org/maroon-bells-snowmass-wilderness.... I was there in 2018. I remember hiking out on a Friday, about a two hour hike, and passing maybe 150 backpackers hiking in to camp overnight during those two hours.
peterbraden 5y ago
Europe is far more free than the US for a lot of this, no permits required, right to roam in many countries, and camping is tolerated most places it isn’t a nuisance.
- revax 5y ago
  Europe is rather diverse regarding those rights. In France you cannot do wild camping at all, bivouacking is merely tolerated. In some trails, you can only set up camp in designated spot.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    ... in theory, in some places, maybe. If you go to the mountains actually, you will see tons of folks camping around all the time, nobody has any issue with it. The only exception are proper natural parks, but that's understandable.
    - ctrager 5y ago
      "but that's understandable" - Except it's the opposite of the USA. No right to camp on private land, but usually allowed on public land. There are a lot of different types of public land in the USA. Not just National Parks, but also National Forest ("forest", a misnomer, because that can include treeless mountain areas, deserts), BLM land. For most National Forst and BLM land, camp anywhere. For National Parks, some places you have to camp in designated campgrounds, but many huge areas where the rule is camp anywhere. I'm saying, the management of public land in the USA is DIFFERENT. Even different than Canada.
- ctrager 5y ago
  There's where you can WALK and where you can CAMP. I'm talking about where you can CAMP. The only countries in Western Europe where there's a lot of freedom to camp are Scotland, Norway, and Sweden. In the Alps, where there is the most dramatic scenario, in France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, there aren't a lot of areas where you can just pick a spot and camp there. You don't need a permit to stay in a hut/refuge, but you usually need a reservation, which is sorta the same thing, a limit to the number of overnight visitors. Effectively a permit. There are very very very few places in the USA where you need a permit to just hike for the day. Places where they are required are either very vulnerable like "The Wave" in Utah or dangerous when overcrowded like Angels Landing in Zion.
deleted 5y ago
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helmholtz 5y ago

Yep, hiking in the alps is largely a hut-to-hut sort of affair. It's picture perfect, jaw droppingly so, but it is crowded, tamed and sterile. Goats are about the wildest thing you see.

saiya-jin 5y ago
Only if you do few most touristic places in whole range of alps. Most of it is quiet and you will meet few people a day. But sure if you pick one of the most popular hikes in alps then its surprisingly crowded, especially in the summer. Autumn is far superior time for Alps hiking (colors, temperatures, weather). Also don't get that camping restrictions rant in this thread - you can camp literally everywhere outside of natural reserve. If its private property and you have somebody to ask then ask for permission. Otherwise be polite, quiet, don't leave anything after you and that's it. I've been doing it for last 10 years almost every weekend weather permitting, never any issue. Outside of proper alpinism / skialpinism never used huts.
- la_fayette 5y ago
  You can do it and get away with it, however it is absolutely forbidden in central europe, except Switzerland... biwaking is only allowed in emergency situations. If you are caught you might have to pay high fines...
  - FDSGSG 5y ago
    You will never be "caught" unless you camp somewhere inappropriate or make a mess

nend 5y ago

Part of the reason for restrictions is because the popularity of the area overwhelms the natural area and causes too much human impact, thus restrictions get put in place so the area can be protected. I for one would love to see more permitting used in the white mountains.

ctrager 5y ago
Yes, I should make it clear that the freedom on the PCT, in the Sierra, is limited to people who have a permit. You can't just show up and camp overnight; you need to get a permit in advance and the quantity of permits is limited to protect the area and the experience. I don't know the White Mountains but here's a place that I've been that is going to start requiring permits: https://aspenjournalism.org/maroon-bells-snowmass-wilderness-overnight-overuse-continues-to-increase/ https://aspenjournalism.org/maroon-bells-snowmass-wilderness.... I was there in 2018. I remember hiking out on a Friday, about a two hour hike, and passing maybe 150 backpackers hiking in to camp overnight during those two hours.

peterbraden 5y ago

Europe is far more free than the US for a lot of this, no permits required, right to roam in many countries, and camping is tolerated most places it isn’t a nuisance.

revax 5y ago
Europe is rather diverse regarding those rights. In France you cannot do wild camping at all, bivouacking is merely tolerated. In some trails, you can only set up camp in designated spot.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  ... in theory, in some places, maybe. If you go to the mountains actually, you will see tons of folks camping around all the time, nobody has any issue with it. The only exception are proper natural parks, but that's understandable.
  - ctrager 5y ago
    "but that's understandable" - Except it's the opposite of the USA. No right to camp on private land, but usually allowed on public land. There are a lot of different types of public land in the USA. Not just National Parks, but also National Forest ("forest", a misnomer, because that can include treeless mountain areas, deserts), BLM land. For most National Forst and BLM land, camp anywhere. For National Parks, some places you have to camp in designated campgrounds, but many huge areas where the rule is camp anywhere. I'm saying, the management of public land in the USA is DIFFERENT. Even different than Canada.
ctrager 5y ago
There's where you can WALK and where you can CAMP. I'm talking about where you can CAMP. The only countries in Western Europe where there's a lot of freedom to camp are Scotland, Norway, and Sweden. In the Alps, where there is the most dramatic scenario, in France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, there aren't a lot of areas where you can just pick a spot and camp there. You don't need a permit to stay in a hut/refuge, but you usually need a reservation, which is sorta the same thing, a limit to the number of overnight visitors. Effectively a permit. There are very very very few places in the USA where you need a permit to just hike for the day. Places where they are required are either very vulnerable like "The Wave" in Utah or dangerous when overcrowded like Angels Landing in Zion.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]