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One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them a

One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Personally, I'm pro-vaccine, double jabbed and luckily no bad experiences with side effects. But I'm vehemently anti-vaccine passport. Every one should have a right to choose. We all have a unique and complex life. It is not for me or you or govt to decide on things like this. Never mind the outrageous curbs on freedoms, vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive. Vaccines work in saving lives. But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data [0]. More details and a handy extract of the data, protests, and my views in this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ColinHayhurst/status/1462003898898657291 https://twitter.com/ColinHayhurst/status/1462003898898657291 [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-...

Jugurtha 5y ago
The peaceful protests in Algeria, gathering hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions, nation wide, every week, for close to three years, were 'barely' covered, even less so when the people were brutally assaulted and arrested by the thousands. There are some of them still in jail, they were snatched from cafés or from home. Some of them were arrested for a Facebook status, or a cartoon. Some were arrested for 'intelligence with a foreign power' (they were accredited journalists). I may be arrested for writing this.
- zo1 5y ago
  I didn't know about those protests at all till your comment.
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Yeah. Considering they led to a President resigning after 20 years of systematic power concentration, to the head of intelligence services being thrown in jail, to a purge where prime ministers, ministers, generals, the head of the Police, and a bunch of other people going to jail, and the people still demanding that those who are throwing these 'corrupt' people in jail and the judges and prosecutors be removed, as they themselves are considered corrupt. In complete darkness internationally for three years. There are massive numbers of people fleeing the country not because there is violence, but because they don't see hope. I think there are more who left the country now than during the decade of civil war.
    - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
      I too had not heard of these protests there, thank you for sharing. I know very well about peaceful protests in North Macedonia[0], which thankfully led to a bloodless, at the ballet box, overthrow of a corrupt government. It was a powder keg for years, including fights in the parliament chamber (thankfully not involving guns) and the election vote was a knife edge decision. The former leader escaped to Humgary and is protected by Orban. Similarly massive numbers of people (>30%) have fled the country also not because of violence, but because they don't see hope. The economy was ruined and money siphoned out by those in power. It has not got much better since, and now the country is again on a knife edge with the PM having resigned.
- rbut 5y ago
  So would you say that protests work?
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Let's say that I'm more actively exploring options than ever before to: - Make it possible for my younger teammates to have options (https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/1458413547680112644 https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/145841354768011264...) and potentially get another passport that gives them options. - Make it possible for them to have a sizeable equity to apologize for the opportunity cost they have incurred by staying. - Make it possible for my whole family to have options. Let's also say that practically everyone I know has left: I am in a local exile. Let's also say that I am way too familiar with how precincts work and have too many lawyers in my contacts for anyone not involved in criminal activities to have, and let's also say that I am extremely careful about what I say online. Let's also say that I'm pushing my friend whose wife is pregnant to make sure his wife gives birth elsewhere so his daughter gets a passport that offers mobility. Let's also say that my first advice to students who ask me for advice is to Get the Fuck Out, and let's also say that I'm constantly reminding my team to save money, and let's also say that I'm having conversations with my siblings to answer the question: what are we still doing here? (we're the only ones who have stayed. Practically all my family has left decades ago). My mother's refusal to live elsewhere was the main reason we stayed. She passed away in July. Would you say that I have answered your question?
nnx 5y ago
> vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. And yet more and more countries are trying to impose them in lockstep fashion.
- tgv 5y ago
  That's not the question; at best it's a naive frame. The question is: is there evidence that shows they're counterproductive? > in lockstep fashion A not so naive frame.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  > Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. How long have COVID-19 vaccine passports existed?
Febra33 5y ago
> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data I just checked your source and can't find anything to confirm your claim. Just take the latest vaccine surveillance report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... and please do tell me where it confirms your claim that vaccinated people are infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated. I am very intrigued.
- crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
  From the PDF you linked. Go to Table 6. First and second columns are shown per 100,000 people. For ages 18-80 the cases per 100,000 people are the same or higher (up to 2x higher) in the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
  - plantain 5y ago
    Isn't that entirely expected with most of the population vaccinated? I imagine most car crash deaths are from those wearing seatbelts too.
    - agentgumshoe 5y ago
      No, the rate per 100k should be much lower if vaccination is working properly. Yes the case numbers would be expected to be higher (a lot of people argue 'base rate fallacy'to support this), but that fails to address that the vaccine should reduce the rate per population, even if raw numbers are expected to be higher due to coverage. The data is not supporting that.
    - crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
      The UK is only around 67.6% fully vaccinated. Regardless, these numbers are per 100,000 people based on their vaccination status. They are normalised.
  - djantje 5y ago
ChrisSD 5y ago
You have the right to choose. A passport gives others necessary information so they can choose. Managing public health is difficult enough even without people forcing their choices on to others.
- headsoup 5y ago
  You do realise the passport doesn't actually provide any information on whether you do or don't have covid, right?
  - ChrisSD 5y ago
    Huh? The NHS COVID Pass does. It allows sharing vaccine status in both domestic and international contexts.
    - agentgumshoe 5y ago
      The vaccine does not protect against infection, it only reduces that risk. The pass only says you've had the vaccine, not that you're covid negative.
      - ChrisSD 5y ago
        I'm struggling to see your point? If someone wants to exercise their freedom of association during a pandemic they should be able to do so. I feel very strongly about this and don't like the alternative of restricting people's rights unnecessarily.
        headsoup 5y ago
        Sorry I may have misinterpreted. So the pass does actually provide live covid status (positive/negative)? That's interesting, I thought they just showed vaccine status
        ChrisSD 5y ago
agentgumshoe 5y ago
I think that's the sad thing about it all. There's a self-righteousness about those who got vaxxed 'for the greater good' even as the vaccine fails to do its job, able to hand wave away 100's of thousands of people peacefully protesting as time wasters or 'anti-vaxxers' instead of considering that maybe, just maybe there's a concern or two they should actually be thinking about. Especially when the media seems extremely hesitant to cover or investigate further themselves. The most insanely ironic thing happening in Australia at the moment is a small group of anti-protester-protesters calling themselves 'anti-fascists' as they oppose those protesting against a risk of authoritarian powers!
- akudha 5y ago
  even as the vaccine fails to do its job, Wait, I was led to believe that the vaccine doesn't necessarily stop you from catching covid, it just doesn't put you in the hospital on ventilators. If that is correct, then the vaccine IS doing its job, no?
  - djantje 5y ago
    Yes, the vaccine does it's job in preventing transmissions, hospital admissions and deaths But sadly not for a 100%
  - agentgumshoe 5y ago
    Depends on what you think success is. Higher hospitalisation and case rates across the board with countries reintroducing restrictions doesn't sound like a success to me. And no, you can't just blame the unvaccinated when transmission is occuring readily through the vaccinated and hitting the hospitals, even if the individual outcomes are less severe.
junon 5y ago
> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data Good god I'm so tired of having to explain vaccines to people. Vaccines do NOT prevent you from being infected. That is NOT their purpose. That is NOT why they are created. The vaccine would have to somehow physically prevent the virus from entering your system. Not a single qualified, authoritative person on this subject has ever claimed they do. EDIT: Downvoters, you're downvoting fact. Do you realize this? Healthcare professionals all over the world are absolutely sick of the willful ignorance. Your actions are getting people killed.
stubish 5y ago
Over here we seem to give more coverage to the anti protests than to the counter protests that we are now seeing with people fearful that pro-health policies will get derailed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-vaccine-mandate-rallies-melbourne-sydney/100636714 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-v... mentions both, but many more words on the anti protest groups.
gnucru 5y ago
Wow, that is a pretty misleading and irresponsible use of gov't data, and I would be surprised if it fooled anyone here. With 70% vaccination rate in the uk, the rate of infection among the vaxxed would need to be over double that of the unvaxxed to indicate a lack of effect. It is simple math. Are you really that oblivious(in which case you should probably keep your mouth shut), or are you just trying to make fools of others..???
- ColinHayhurst 5y ago
  The numbers are normalised (per 100,000)
Yoric 5y ago
> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data. I've been poring your gov.uk link and the closest thing I can find to data that would back this affirmation comes with very heavy caveat: « Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection. Vaccine effectiveness has been formally estimated from a number of different sources and is summarised on pages 5 to 8 in this report. The case rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations are unadjusted crude rates that do not take into account underlying statistical biases in the data and there are likely to be systematic differences between these 2 population groups. » Also, assuming that your conclusions are, is that the number we should be watching? We're looking for number of people who go to the hospital, die or suffer from long covid. According to the same table you're looking at, vaccines are a huge success at preventing deaths (I haven't bothered looking data on these other points). edit Nuanced my response. I believe that the parent's response came before my edit.
- ColinHayhurst 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Same reason the media are who pushed the narrative that covid is as bad as the spanish flu. Even though it never was. It has left quite a number of people believing that covid is worse than the normal flu. Which it never was. I've considered as well, if the media reported the truth. Would our society have considered lockdowns at all? If society knew the truth that covid has lower risk than the normal flu season. We wouldn't have done anything. We know because we dont do anything for normal flu. Flipside, shouldnt we try to eliminate these things?

Jugurtha 5y ago

The peaceful protests in Algeria, gathering hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions, nation wide, every week, for close to three years, were 'barely' covered, even less so when the people were brutally assaulted and arrested by the thousands. There are some of them still in jail, they were snatched from cafés or from home. Some of them were arrested for a Facebook status, or a cartoon. Some were arrested for 'intelligence with a foreign power' (they were accredited journalists). I may be arrested for writing this.

zo1 5y ago
I didn't know about those protests at all till your comment.
- Jugurtha 5y ago
  Yeah. Considering they led to a President resigning after 20 years of systematic power concentration, to the head of intelligence services being thrown in jail, to a purge where prime ministers, ministers, generals, the head of the Police, and a bunch of other people going to jail, and the people still demanding that those who are throwing these 'corrupt' people in jail and the judges and prosecutors be removed, as they themselves are considered corrupt. In complete darkness internationally for three years. There are massive numbers of people fleeing the country not because there is violence, but because they don't see hope. I think there are more who left the country now than during the decade of civil war.
  - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
    I too had not heard of these protests there, thank you for sharing. I know very well about peaceful protests in North Macedonia[0], which thankfully led to a bloodless, at the ballet box, overthrow of a corrupt government. It was a powder keg for years, including fights in the parliament chamber (thankfully not involving guns) and the election vote was a knife edge decision. The former leader escaped to Humgary and is protected by Orban. Similarly massive numbers of people (>30%) have fled the country also not because of violence, but because they don't see hope. The economy was ruined and money siphoned out by those in power. It has not got much better since, and now the country is again on a knife edge with the PM having resigned.
rbut 5y ago
So would you say that protests work?
- Jugurtha 5y ago
  Let's say that I'm more actively exploring options than ever before to: - Make it possible for my younger teammates to have options (https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/1458413547680112644 https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/145841354768011264...) and potentially get another passport that gives them options. - Make it possible for them to have a sizeable equity to apologize for the opportunity cost they have incurred by staying. - Make it possible for my whole family to have options. Let's also say that practically everyone I know has left: I am in a local exile. Let's also say that I am way too familiar with how precincts work and have too many lawyers in my contacts for anyone not involved in criminal activities to have, and let's also say that I am extremely careful about what I say online. Let's also say that I'm pushing my friend whose wife is pregnant to make sure his wife gives birth elsewhere so his daughter gets a passport that offers mobility. Let's also say that my first advice to students who ask me for advice is to Get the Fuck Out, and let's also say that I'm constantly reminding my team to save money, and let's also say that I'm having conversations with my siblings to answer the question: what are we still doing here? (we're the only ones who have stayed. Practically all my family has left decades ago). My mother's refusal to live elsewhere was the main reason we stayed. She passed away in July. Would you say that I have answered your question?

nnx 5y ago

> vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. And yet more and more countries are trying to impose them in lockstep fashion.

tgv 5y ago
That's not the question; at best it's a naive frame. The question is: is there evidence that shows they're counterproductive? > in lockstep fashion A not so naive frame.
WalterGR 5y ago
> Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. How long have COVID-19 vaccine passports existed?

Febra33 5y ago

> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data I just checked your source and can't find anything to confirm your claim. Just take the latest vaccine surveillance report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... and please do tell me where it confirms your claim that vaccinated people are infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated. I am very intrigued.

crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
From the PDF you linked. Go to Table 6. First and second columns are shown per 100,000 people. For ages 18-80 the cases per 100,000 people are the same or higher (up to 2x higher) in the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
- plantain 5y ago
  Isn't that entirely expected with most of the population vaccinated? I imagine most car crash deaths are from those wearing seatbelts too.
  - agentgumshoe 5y ago
    No, the rate per 100k should be much lower if vaccination is working properly. Yes the case numbers would be expected to be higher (a lot of people argue 'base rate fallacy'to support this), but that fails to address that the vaccine should reduce the rate per population, even if raw numbers are expected to be higher due to coverage. The data is not supporting that.
  - crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
    The UK is only around 67.6% fully vaccinated. Regardless, these numbers are per 100,000 people based on their vaccination status. They are normalised.
- djantje 5y ago

ChrisSD 5y ago

You have the right to choose. A passport gives others necessary information so they can choose. Managing public health is difficult enough even without people forcing their choices on to others.

headsoup 5y ago
You do realise the passport doesn't actually provide any information on whether you do or don't have covid, right?
- ChrisSD 5y ago
  Huh? The NHS COVID Pass does. It allows sharing vaccine status in both domestic and international contexts.
  - agentgumshoe 5y ago
    The vaccine does not protect against infection, it only reduces that risk. The pass only says you've had the vaccine, not that you're covid negative.
    - ChrisSD 5y ago
      I'm struggling to see your point? If someone wants to exercise their freedom of association during a pandemic they should be able to do so. I feel very strongly about this and don't like the alternative of restricting people's rights unnecessarily.
      - headsoup 5y ago
        Sorry I may have misinterpreted. So the pass does actually provide live covid status (positive/negative)? That's interesting, I thought they just showed vaccine status
        ChrisSD 5y ago

agentgumshoe 5y ago

I think that's the sad thing about it all. There's a self-righteousness about those who got vaxxed 'for the greater good' even as the vaccine fails to do its job, able to hand wave away 100's of thousands of people peacefully protesting as time wasters or 'anti-vaxxers' instead of considering that maybe, just maybe there's a concern or two they should actually be thinking about. Especially when the media seems extremely hesitant to cover or investigate further themselves. The most insanely ironic thing happening in Australia at the moment is a small group of anti-protester-protesters calling themselves 'anti-fascists' as they oppose those protesting against a risk of authoritarian powers!

akudha 5y ago
even as the vaccine fails to do its job, Wait, I was led to believe that the vaccine doesn't necessarily stop you from catching covid, it just doesn't put you in the hospital on ventilators. If that is correct, then the vaccine IS doing its job, no?
- djantje 5y ago
  Yes, the vaccine does it's job in preventing transmissions, hospital admissions and deaths But sadly not for a 100%
- agentgumshoe 5y ago
  Depends on what you think success is. Higher hospitalisation and case rates across the board with countries reintroducing restrictions doesn't sound like a success to me. And no, you can't just blame the unvaccinated when transmission is occuring readily through the vaccinated and hitting the hospitals, even if the individual outcomes are less severe.

junon 5y ago

> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data Good god I'm so tired of having to explain vaccines to people. Vaccines do NOT prevent you from being infected. That is NOT their purpose. That is NOT why they are created. The vaccine would have to somehow physically prevent the virus from entering your system. Not a single qualified, authoritative person on this subject has ever claimed they do. EDIT: Downvoters, you're downvoting fact. Do you realize this? Healthcare professionals all over the world are absolutely sick of the willful ignorance. Your actions are getting people killed.

stubish 5y ago

Over here we seem to give more coverage to the anti protests than to the counter protests that we are now seeing with people fearful that pro-health policies will get derailed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-vaccine-mandate-rallies-melbourne-sydney/100636714 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-v... mentions both, but many more words on the anti protest groups.

gnucru 5y ago

Wow, that is a pretty misleading and irresponsible use of gov't data, and I would be surprised if it fooled anyone here. With 70% vaccination rate in the uk, the rate of infection among the vaxxed would need to be over double that of the unvaxxed to indicate a lack of effect. It is simple math. Are you really that oblivious(in which case you should probably keep your mouth shut), or are you just trying to make fools of others..???

ColinHayhurst 5y ago
The numbers are normalised (per 100,000)

Yoric 5y ago

> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data. I've been poring your gov.uk link and the closest thing I can find to data that would back this affirmation comes with very heavy caveat: « Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection. Vaccine effectiveness has been formally estimated from a number of different sources and is summarised on pages 5 to 8 in this report. The case rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations are unadjusted crude rates that do not take into account underlying statistical biases in the data and there are likely to be systematic differences between these 2 population groups. » Also, assuming that your conclusions are, is that the number we should be watching? We're looking for number of people who go to the hospital, die or suffer from long covid. According to the same table you're looking at, vaccines are a huge success at preventing deaths (I haven't bothered looking data on these other points). edit Nuanced my response. I believe that the parent's response came before my edit.

ColinHayhurst 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164

sleepysysadmin 5y ago

>One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Same reason the media are who pushed the narrative that covid is as bad as the spanish flu. Even though it never was. It has left quite a number of people believing that covid is worse than the normal flu. Which it never was. I've considered as well, if the media reported the truth. Would our society have considered lockdowns at all? If society knew the truth that covid has lower risk than the normal flu season. We wouldn't have done anything. We know because we dont do anything for normal flu. Flipside, shouldnt we try to eliminate these things?