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People in 150 cities globally standing up to authoritarian controls on freedoms

34 points by PrivacyDingus 5y ago

ColinHayhurst 5y ago
One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Personally, I'm pro-vaccine, double jabbed and luckily no bad experiences with side effects. But I'm vehemently anti-vaccine passport. Every one should have a right to choose. We all have a unique and complex life. It is not for me or you or govt to decide on things like this. Never mind the outrageous curbs on freedoms, vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive. Vaccines work in saving lives. But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data [0]. More details and a handy extract of the data, protests, and my views in this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ColinHayhurst/status/1462003898898657291 https://twitter.com/ColinHayhurst/status/1462003898898657291 [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-...
- Jugurtha 5y ago
  The peaceful protests in Algeria, gathering hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions, nation wide, every week, for close to three years, were 'barely' covered, even less so when the people were brutally assaulted and arrested by the thousands. There are some of them still in jail, they were snatched from cafés or from home. Some of them were arrested for a Facebook status, or a cartoon. Some were arrested for 'intelligence with a foreign power' (they were accredited journalists). I may be arrested for writing this.
  - zo1 5y ago
    I didn't know about those protests at all till your comment.
    - Jugurtha 5y ago
      Yeah. Considering they led to a President resigning after 20 years of systematic power concentration, to the head of intelligence services being thrown in jail, to a purge where prime ministers, ministers, generals, the head of the Police, and a bunch of other people going to jail, and the people still demanding that those who are throwing these 'corrupt' people in jail and the judges and prosecutors be removed, as they themselves are considered corrupt. In complete darkness internationally for three years. There are massive numbers of people fleeing the country not because there is violence, but because they don't see hope. I think there are more who left the country now than during the decade of civil war.
      - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
        I too had not heard of these protests there, thank you for sharing. I know very well about peaceful protests in North Macedonia[0], which thankfully led to a bloodless, at the ballet box, overthrow of a corrupt government. It was a powder keg for years, including fights in the parliament chamber (thankfully not involving guns) and the election vote was a knife edge decision. The former leader escaped to Humgary and is protected by Orban. Similarly massive numbers of people (>30%) have fled the country also not because of violence, but because they don't see hope. The economy was ruined and money siphoned out by those in power. It has not got much better since, and now the country is again on a knife edge with the PM having resigned.
  - rbut 5y ago
    So would you say that protests work?
    - Jugurtha 5y ago
      Let's say that I'm more actively exploring options than ever before to: - Make it possible for my younger teammates to have options (https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/1458413547680112644 https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/145841354768011264...) and potentially get another passport that gives them options. - Make it possible for them to have a sizeable equity to apologize for the opportunity cost they have incurred by staying. - Make it possible for my whole family to have options. Let's also say that practically everyone I know has left: I am in a local exile. Let's also say that I am way too familiar with how precincts work and have too many lawyers in my contacts for anyone not involved in criminal activities to have, and let's also say that I am extremely careful about what I say online. Let's also say that I'm pushing my friend whose wife is pregnant to make sure his wife gives birth elsewhere so his daughter gets a passport that offers mobility. Let's also say that my first advice to students who ask me for advice is to Get the Fuck Out, and let's also say that I'm constantly reminding my team to save money, and let's also say that I'm having conversations with my siblings to answer the question: what are we still doing here? (we're the only ones who have stayed. Practically all my family has left decades ago). My mother's refusal to live elsewhere was the main reason we stayed. She passed away in July. Would you say that I have answered your question?
- nnx 5y ago
  > vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. And yet more and more countries are trying to impose them in lockstep fashion.
  - tgv 5y ago
    That's not the question; at best it's a naive frame. The question is: is there evidence that shows they're counterproductive? > in lockstep fashion A not so naive frame.
  - WalterGR 5y ago
    > Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. How long have COVID-19 vaccine passports existed?
- Febra33 5y ago
  > But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data I just checked your source and can't find anything to confirm your claim. Just take the latest vaccine surveillance report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... and please do tell me where it confirms your claim that vaccinated people are infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated. I am very intrigued.
  - crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
    From the PDF you linked. Go to Table 6. First and second columns are shown per 100,000 people. For ages 18-80 the cases per 100,000 people are the same or higher (up to 2x higher) in the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
    - plantain 5y ago
      Isn't that entirely expected with most of the population vaccinated? I imagine most car crash deaths are from those wearing seatbelts too.
      - agentgumshoe 5y ago
        No, the rate per 100k should be much lower if vaccination is working properly. Yes the case numbers would be expected to be higher (a lot of people argue 'base rate fallacy'to support this), but that fails to address that the vaccine should reduce the rate per population, even if raw numbers are expected to be higher due to coverage. The data is not supporting that.
      - crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
        The UK is only around 67.6% fully vaccinated. Regardless, these numbers are per 100,000 people based on their vaccination status. They are normalised.
    - djantje 5y ago
- ChrisSD 5y ago
  You have the right to choose. A passport gives others necessary information so they can choose. Managing public health is difficult enough even without people forcing their choices on to others.
  - headsoup 5y ago
    You do realise the passport doesn't actually provide any information on whether you do or don't have covid, right?
    - ChrisSD 5y ago
      Huh? The NHS COVID Pass does. It allows sharing vaccine status in both domestic and international contexts.
      - agentgumshoe 5y ago
        The vaccine does not protect against infection, it only reduces that risk. The pass only says you've had the vaccine, not that you're covid negative.
        ChrisSD 5y ago
        I'm struggling to see your point? If someone wants to exercise their freedom of association during a pandemic they should be able to do so. I feel very strongly about this and don't like the alternative of restricting people's rights unnecessarily.
        headsoup 5y ago
        Sorry I may have misinterpreted. So the pass does actually provide live covid status (positive/negative)? That's interesting, I thought they just showed vaccine status
        ChrisSD 5y ago
- agentgumshoe 5y ago
  I think that's the sad thing about it all. There's a self-righteousness about those who got vaxxed 'for the greater good' even as the vaccine fails to do its job, able to hand wave away 100's of thousands of people peacefully protesting as time wasters or 'anti-vaxxers' instead of considering that maybe, just maybe there's a concern or two they should actually be thinking about. Especially when the media seems extremely hesitant to cover or investigate further themselves. The most insanely ironic thing happening in Australia at the moment is a small group of anti-protester-protesters calling themselves 'anti-fascists' as they oppose those protesting against a risk of authoritarian powers!
  - akudha 5y ago
    even as the vaccine fails to do its job, Wait, I was led to believe that the vaccine doesn't necessarily stop you from catching covid, it just doesn't put you in the hospital on ventilators. If that is correct, then the vaccine IS doing its job, no?
    - djantje 5y ago
      Yes, the vaccine does it's job in preventing transmissions, hospital admissions and deaths But sadly not for a 100%
    - agentgumshoe 5y ago
      Depends on what you think success is. Higher hospitalisation and case rates across the board with countries reintroducing restrictions doesn't sound like a success to me. And no, you can't just blame the unvaccinated when transmission is occuring readily through the vaccinated and hitting the hospitals, even if the individual outcomes are less severe.
- junon 5y ago
  > But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data Good god I'm so tired of having to explain vaccines to people. Vaccines do NOT prevent you from being infected. That is NOT their purpose. That is NOT why they are created. The vaccine would have to somehow physically prevent the virus from entering your system. Not a single qualified, authoritative person on this subject has ever claimed they do. EDIT: Downvoters, you're downvoting fact. Do you realize this? Healthcare professionals all over the world are absolutely sick of the willful ignorance. Your actions are getting people killed.
- stubish 5y ago
  Over here we seem to give more coverage to the anti protests than to the counter protests that we are now seeing with people fearful that pro-health policies will get derailed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-vaccine-mandate-rallies-melbourne-sydney/100636714 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-v... mentions both, but many more words on the anti protest groups.
- gnucru 5y ago
  Wow, that is a pretty misleading and irresponsible use of gov't data, and I would be surprised if it fooled anyone here. With 70% vaccination rate in the uk, the rate of infection among the vaxxed would need to be over double that of the unvaxxed to indicate a lack of effect. It is simple math. Are you really that oblivious(in which case you should probably keep your mouth shut), or are you just trying to make fools of others..???
  - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
    The numbers are normalised (per 100,000)
- Yoric 5y ago
  > But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data. I've been poring your gov.uk link and the closest thing I can find to data that would back this affirmation comes with very heavy caveat: « Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection. Vaccine effectiveness has been formally estimated from a number of different sources and is summarised on pages 5 to 8 in this report. The case rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations are unadjusted crude rates that do not take into account underlying statistical biases in the data and there are likely to be systematic differences between these 2 population groups. » Also, assuming that your conclusions are, is that the number we should be watching? We're looking for number of people who go to the hospital, die or suffer from long covid. According to the same table you're looking at, vaccines are a huge success at preventing deaths (I haven't bothered looking data on these other points). edit Nuanced my response. I believe that the parent's response came before my edit.
  - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164
- sleepysysadmin 5y ago
  >One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Same reason the media are who pushed the narrative that covid is as bad as the spanish flu. Even though it never was. It has left quite a number of people believing that covid is worse than the normal flu. Which it never was. I've considered as well, if the media reported the truth. Would our society have considered lockdowns at all? If society knew the truth that covid has lower risk than the normal flu season. We wouldn't have done anything. We know because we dont do anything for normal flu. Flipside, shouldnt we try to eliminate these things?
Febra33 5y ago
> The World Wide Demonstration (also known as the World Wide Rally For Freedom) is an internationally syndicated community demonstration dedicated to emboldening citizens to push back against Coronavirus related Restrictions in their countries. So, antivaxxers don't want to get vaccinated.
- bserge 5y ago
  The vaccinated are getting the same restrictions, so it might actually be them this time.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
  No, not at all. At least as many double vaccinated attend these rallies because they realise that tracking via QR code checkin, vaccine passports, manadatory vaccinations or you lose your job, mandatory boosters every 6 months, and the unvaxxed being banned from public life, are a huge assault on freedoms within our liberal democracies.
  - headsoup 5y ago
    It all feels too eerily familiar to those dismissing privacy concerns because 'well if you don't have anything to hide you shouldn't be worried.' As if vaccine passports and mandates etc would be used for anything not positive and helpful to the public...
    - tgv 5y ago
      But QR codes aren't being tracked. If I'm not mistaking, storing them is in violation of a bunch of laws. If not, such laws can be made. Privacy is hardly an issue.
      - rbut 5y ago
        The police in Australia have made multiple attempts to access QR code data to track down criminals. So yes, privacy is always an issue.
mordae 5y ago
In my country, they have recently started with jews-in-nazi-Germany fearmongering. It's incredible, how fast does the Facebook schismogenesis work. "We all need to get vaccinated!" "But I am afraid!" "You are unsafe for your community and should be ashamed!" "I don't want to be stigmatized. Why are you pushing this so hard?" "You are now required to prove that you have complied to live a normal life." "This is literal fascism! You are violating my rights!" The fact that we have a number of unmoderated forums such as Facebook and YouTube did not help. It's okay to have a hide park on 4chan, but having a syndicated stream of uncredentialed nobodies who have just happened to win an algorithmic loterry was not a very bright idea. Especially since some have noticed that inflammatory and/or fear-inducing content is interacted with more frequently.
- _Microft 5y ago
  > a syndicated stream of uncredentialed nobodies who have just happened to win an algorithmic [lottery] This might be the most appropriate description of social media that I ever got to read.
  - mordae 5y ago
    FB especially was not designed for this scale. Sadly it has also killed most of the small local moderated forums where people were hanging out, such as the local D&D site. It has also successfully acquired user base that was never really acquainted with netiquette of such moderated spaces. Namely the generation of my parents.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  "schismogenesis" I'm just curious, did you happen to pick up that term from Jasun Horsley?
sto_hristo 5y ago
Here's an idea for a next trendy protest: Drunk people against restrictions on driving. Cuz if you're drunk and evil fascist 3rd reich billgates police stops you, then your rights have been violated.
- headsoup 5y ago
  How about we force gastric bands on everyone instead to stop this obesity pandemic, the death toll is unbearable any longer. That sound 'trendy' for you? Just need to media to drum up all the fear about how eating crap is contagious and you eating less saves the lives of others who get your excess food. Still trendy?
  - sto_hristo 5y ago
    But someone's weight doesn't pose a risk to the ones surrounding them. And i've yet to hear how hospitals get filled with obese people and doctors are struggling with waves after waves of obese people that need to be bedded and taken care of. These are simple things, but you need to have some bare minimum amount of neurons to realize this. And somehow you lost yours. What happened - an accident or is it congenital?
    - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
      It does pose risks to others when it depletes social health resources.
      - sto_hristo 5y ago
        And this is exactly what the virus has been doing since day one. Forcing one lockdown after another, because hospitals fill like it's nothing. In my city, ambulances have more in common with a private tour shuttles - jumping from one hospital to another. Yet, these antivaxers simply can't accept reality. They are like flat earthers - Earth is round below their feet, but they insist the opposite. Only instead of NASA lying to them, now it's "fascism" (like anyone can give the actual definition of this), the pharma mafia, plandemic. A bunch of delusional morons in agreement with one another doesn't make them right. But for that to be realized, you gotta have a bare minimum of neurons left in the hollow top bone.
defendfreedom 5y ago
I 100% support limiting as much as possible access to a normal life to people who don't want to get the vaccine. Yes, you're free to put the rest of us at risk because you're too afraid to get vaccinated (because fear and an inability to manage one's emotions is absolutely at the root of the antivax sentiment), but we will in response ostracize you from public life until you fulfill your civic duty. So I hope that these dangerous protests get crushed by the respective governments.
- agentgumshoe 5y ago
  At risk of what exactly? The unvaccinated don't automatically have covid. The vaccinated can catch, and spread covid. If you are vaccinated, why are you afraid of unvaccinated people being around you, if it is only them that will be worse off? Regardless of the ideology of the protest, you are demanding authoritarian response because you disagree. Could you see how this could have a very bad outcome down the line?
- mordae 5y ago
  You have suggested a divide: THEY are not unlike US in that THEY cannot regulate their emotions like US. Once you have established a higher moral ground, you have proposed to ostracize THEM from public life, until they become US. The problem is that they say we are discriminating against them, which we objectively are. Please refrain from furthering the divide and concentrate on productive strategies to mitigate the situation. Especially if you truly believe that its an issue with emotional regulation, because these usually cannot be handled safely by piling on more pressure.
gnucru 5y ago
Egg an anti-vaxxer, earn your badge, ring the bell. It is time for hospitals to start limiting access to the unvaccinated. My mommy is one of the founding pathologists of Metro McNair clinical laboratories; now LifeLabs, that does most of the blood, piss, and other medical testing in Western Canada. Dinnertime discussion as a child included family troubleshooting of faulty/unusual lab results. Is my Mommy part of this conspiracy to take people's rights away..?? Or are we giving too much airtime to selfish ignorami, because that is really what it comes down to: people thinking they are more important than everyone else, and hence immune from moral compulsion. Who do YOU listen to..???

34 points by PrivacyDingus 5y ago

One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Personally, I'm pro-vaccine, double jabbed and luckily no bad experiences with side effects. But I'm vehemently anti-vaccine passport. Every one should have a right to choose. We all have a unique and complex life. It is not for me or you or govt to decide on things like this. Never mind the outrageous curbs on freedoms, vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive. Vaccines work in saving lives. But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data [0]. More details and a handy extract of the data, protests, and my views in this thread on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ColinHayhurst/status/1462003898898657291 https://twitter.com/ColinHayhurst/status/1462003898898657291 [0] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-...

Jugurtha 5y ago
The peaceful protests in Algeria, gathering hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions, nation wide, every week, for close to three years, were 'barely' covered, even less so when the people were brutally assaulted and arrested by the thousands. There are some of them still in jail, they were snatched from cafés or from home. Some of them were arrested for a Facebook status, or a cartoon. Some were arrested for 'intelligence with a foreign power' (they were accredited journalists). I may be arrested for writing this.
- zo1 5y ago
  I didn't know about those protests at all till your comment.
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Yeah. Considering they led to a President resigning after 20 years of systematic power concentration, to the head of intelligence services being thrown in jail, to a purge where prime ministers, ministers, generals, the head of the Police, and a bunch of other people going to jail, and the people still demanding that those who are throwing these 'corrupt' people in jail and the judges and prosecutors be removed, as they themselves are considered corrupt. In complete darkness internationally for three years. There are massive numbers of people fleeing the country not because there is violence, but because they don't see hope. I think there are more who left the country now than during the decade of civil war.
    - ColinHayhurst 5y ago
      I too had not heard of these protests there, thank you for sharing. I know very well about peaceful protests in North Macedonia[0], which thankfully led to a bloodless, at the ballet box, overthrow of a corrupt government. It was a powder keg for years, including fights in the parliament chamber (thankfully not involving guns) and the election vote was a knife edge decision. The former leader escaped to Humgary and is protected by Orban. Similarly massive numbers of people (>30%) have fled the country also not because of violence, but because they don't see hope. The economy was ruined and money siphoned out by those in power. It has not got much better since, and now the country is again on a knife edge with the PM having resigned.
- rbut 5y ago
  So would you say that protests work?
  - Jugurtha 5y ago
    Let's say that I'm more actively exploring options than ever before to: - Make it possible for my younger teammates to have options (https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/1458413547680112644 https://twitter.com/jugurthahadjar/status/145841354768011264...) and potentially get another passport that gives them options. - Make it possible for them to have a sizeable equity to apologize for the opportunity cost they have incurred by staying. - Make it possible for my whole family to have options. Let's also say that practically everyone I know has left: I am in a local exile. Let's also say that I am way too familiar with how precincts work and have too many lawyers in my contacts for anyone not involved in criminal activities to have, and let's also say that I am extremely careful about what I say online. Let's also say that I'm pushing my friend whose wife is pregnant to make sure his wife gives birth elsewhere so his daughter gets a passport that offers mobility. Let's also say that my first advice to students who ask me for advice is to Get the Fuck Out, and let's also say that I'm constantly reminding my team to save money, and let's also say that I'm having conversations with my siblings to answer the question: what are we still doing here? (we're the only ones who have stayed. Practically all my family has left decades ago). My mother's refusal to live elsewhere was the main reason we stayed. She passed away in July. Would you say that I have answered your question?
nnx 5y ago
> vaccine passports are likely to be if anything counterproductive Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. And yet more and more countries are trying to impose them in lockstep fashion.
- tgv 5y ago
  That's not the question; at best it's a naive frame. The question is: is there evidence that shows they're counterproductive? > in lockstep fashion A not so naive frame.
- WalterGR 5y ago
  > Clearly, or at least there are absolutely zero studies to show they are helping in any way. How long have COVID-19 vaccine passports existed?
Febra33 5y ago
> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data I just checked your source and can't find anything to confirm your claim. Just take the latest vaccine surveillance report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... and please do tell me where it confirms your claim that vaccinated people are infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated. I am very intrigued.
- crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
  From the PDF you linked. Go to Table 6. First and second columns are shown per 100,000 people. For ages 18-80 the cases per 100,000 people are the same or higher (up to 2x higher) in the fully vaccinated vs the unvaccinated.
  - plantain 5y ago
    Isn't that entirely expected with most of the population vaccinated? I imagine most car crash deaths are from those wearing seatbelts too.
    - agentgumshoe 5y ago
      No, the rate per 100k should be much lower if vaccination is working properly. Yes the case numbers would be expected to be higher (a lot of people argue 'base rate fallacy'to support this), but that fails to address that the vaccine should reduce the rate per population, even if raw numbers are expected to be higher due to coverage. The data is not supporting that.
    - crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
      The UK is only around 67.6% fully vaccinated. Regardless, these numbers are per 100,000 people based on their vaccination status. They are normalised.
  - djantje 5y ago
ChrisSD 5y ago
You have the right to choose. A passport gives others necessary information so they can choose. Managing public health is difficult enough even without people forcing their choices on to others.
- headsoup 5y ago
  You do realise the passport doesn't actually provide any information on whether you do or don't have covid, right?
  - ChrisSD 5y ago
    Huh? The NHS COVID Pass does. It allows sharing vaccine status in both domestic and international contexts.
    - agentgumshoe 5y ago
      The vaccine does not protect against infection, it only reduces that risk. The pass only says you've had the vaccine, not that you're covid negative.
      - ChrisSD 5y ago
        I'm struggling to see your point? If someone wants to exercise their freedom of association during a pandemic they should be able to do so. I feel very strongly about this and don't like the alternative of restricting people's rights unnecessarily.
        headsoup 5y ago
        Sorry I may have misinterpreted. So the pass does actually provide live covid status (positive/negative)? That's interesting, I thought they just showed vaccine status
        ChrisSD 5y ago
agentgumshoe 5y ago
I think that's the sad thing about it all. There's a self-righteousness about those who got vaxxed 'for the greater good' even as the vaccine fails to do its job, able to hand wave away 100's of thousands of people peacefully protesting as time wasters or 'anti-vaxxers' instead of considering that maybe, just maybe there's a concern or two they should actually be thinking about. Especially when the media seems extremely hesitant to cover or investigate further themselves. The most insanely ironic thing happening in Australia at the moment is a small group of anti-protester-protesters calling themselves 'anti-fascists' as they oppose those protesting against a risk of authoritarian powers!
- akudha 5y ago
  even as the vaccine fails to do its job, Wait, I was led to believe that the vaccine doesn't necessarily stop you from catching covid, it just doesn't put you in the hospital on ventilators. If that is correct, then the vaccine IS doing its job, no?
  - djantje 5y ago
    Yes, the vaccine does it's job in preventing transmissions, hospital admissions and deaths But sadly not for a 100%
  - agentgumshoe 5y ago
    Depends on what you think success is. Higher hospitalisation and case rates across the board with countries reintroducing restrictions doesn't sound like a success to me. And no, you can't just blame the unvaccinated when transmission is occuring readily through the vaccinated and hitting the hospitals, even if the individual outcomes are less severe.
junon 5y ago
> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data Good god I'm so tired of having to explain vaccines to people. Vaccines do NOT prevent you from being infected. That is NOT their purpose. That is NOT why they are created. The vaccine would have to somehow physically prevent the virus from entering your system. Not a single qualified, authoritative person on this subject has ever claimed they do. EDIT: Downvoters, you're downvoting fact. Do you realize this? Healthcare professionals all over the world are absolutely sick of the willful ignorance. Your actions are getting people killed.
stubish 5y ago
Over here we seem to give more coverage to the anti protests than to the counter protests that we are now seeing with people fearful that pro-health policies will get derailed. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-vaccine-mandate-rallies-melbourne-sydney/100636714 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-20/covid-anti-lockdown-v... mentions both, but many more words on the anti protest groups.
gnucru 5y ago
Wow, that is a pretty misleading and irresponsible use of gov't data, and I would be surprised if it fooled anyone here. With 70% vaccination rate in the uk, the rate of infection among the vaxxed would need to be over double that of the unvaxxed to indicate a lack of effect. It is simple math. Are you really that oblivious(in which case you should probably keep your mouth shut), or are you just trying to make fools of others..???
- ColinHayhurst 5y ago
  The numbers are normalised (per 100,000)
Yoric 5y ago
> But the vaccinated are being infected at higher rates than the non-vaccinated according to UK govt data. I've been poring your gov.uk link and the closest thing I can find to data that would back this affirmation comes with very heavy caveat: « Comparing case rates among vaccinated and unvaccinated populations should not be used to estimate vaccine effectiveness against COVID-19 infection. Vaccine effectiveness has been formally estimated from a number of different sources and is summarised on pages 5 to 8 in this report. The case rates in the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations are unadjusted crude rates that do not take into account underlying statistical biases in the data and there are likely to be systematic differences between these 2 population groups. » Also, assuming that your conclusions are, is that the number we should be watching? We're looking for number of people who go to the hospital, die or suffer from long covid. According to the same table you're looking at, vaccines are a huge success at preventing deaths (I haven't bothered looking data on these other points). edit Nuanced my response. I believe that the parent's response came before my edit.
- ColinHayhurst 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29287164
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>One has to wonder why these protests, which happen every week and are big, barely get reported in the media. When they are mentioned many people denounce them as being a bunch of anti-vaxxers. This is far from true, but like so much propoganda nowadays has an element of truth. Same reason the media are who pushed the narrative that covid is as bad as the spanish flu. Even though it never was. It has left quite a number of people believing that covid is worse than the normal flu. Which it never was. I've considered as well, if the media reported the truth. Would our society have considered lockdowns at all? If society knew the truth that covid has lower risk than the normal flu season. We wouldn't have done anything. We know because we dont do anything for normal flu. Flipside, shouldnt we try to eliminate these things?

Febra33 5y ago

> The World Wide Demonstration (also known as the World Wide Rally For Freedom) is an internationally syndicated community demonstration dedicated to emboldening citizens to push back against Coronavirus related Restrictions in their countries. So, antivaxxers don't want to get vaccinated.

bserge 5y ago
The vaccinated are getting the same restrictions, so it might actually be them this time.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
crimsonnoodle58 5y ago
No, not at all. At least as many double vaccinated attend these rallies because they realise that tracking via QR code checkin, vaccine passports, manadatory vaccinations or you lose your job, mandatory boosters every 6 months, and the unvaxxed being banned from public life, are a huge assault on freedoms within our liberal democracies.
- headsoup 5y ago
  It all feels too eerily familiar to those dismissing privacy concerns because 'well if you don't have anything to hide you shouldn't be worried.' As if vaccine passports and mandates etc would be used for anything not positive and helpful to the public...
  - tgv 5y ago
    But QR codes aren't being tracked. If I'm not mistaking, storing them is in violation of a bunch of laws. If not, such laws can be made. Privacy is hardly an issue.
    - rbut 5y ago
      The police in Australia have made multiple attempts to access QR code data to track down criminals. So yes, privacy is always an issue.

mordae 5y ago

In my country, they have recently started with jews-in-nazi-Germany fearmongering. It's incredible, how fast does the Facebook schismogenesis work. "We all need to get vaccinated!" "But I am afraid!" "You are unsafe for your community and should be ashamed!" "I don't want to be stigmatized. Why are you pushing this so hard?" "You are now required to prove that you have complied to live a normal life." "This is literal fascism! You are violating my rights!" The fact that we have a number of unmoderated forums such as Facebook and YouTube did not help. It's okay to have a hide park on 4chan, but having a syndicated stream of uncredentialed nobodies who have just happened to win an algorithmic loterry was not a very bright idea. Especially since some have noticed that inflammatory and/or fear-inducing content is interacted with more frequently.

_Microft 5y ago
> a syndicated stream of uncredentialed nobodies who have just happened to win an algorithmic [lottery] This might be the most appropriate description of social media that I ever got to read.
- mordae 5y ago
  FB especially was not designed for this scale. Sadly it has also killed most of the small local moderated forums where people were hanging out, such as the local D&D site. It has also successfully acquired user base that was never really acquainted with netiquette of such moderated spaces. Namely the generation of my parents.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
"schismogenesis" I'm just curious, did you happen to pick up that term from Jasun Horsley?

sto_hristo 5y ago

Here's an idea for a next trendy protest: Drunk people against restrictions on driving. Cuz if you're drunk and evil fascist 3rd reich billgates police stops you, then your rights have been violated.

headsoup 5y ago
How about we force gastric bands on everyone instead to stop this obesity pandemic, the death toll is unbearable any longer. That sound 'trendy' for you? Just need to media to drum up all the fear about how eating crap is contagious and you eating less saves the lives of others who get your excess food. Still trendy?
- sto_hristo 5y ago
  But someone's weight doesn't pose a risk to the ones surrounding them. And i've yet to hear how hospitals get filled with obese people and doctors are struggling with waves after waves of obese people that need to be bedded and taken care of. These are simple things, but you need to have some bare minimum amount of neurons to realize this. And somehow you lost yours. What happened - an accident or is it congenital?
  - readflaggedcomm 5y ago
    It does pose risks to others when it depletes social health resources.
    - sto_hristo 5y ago
      And this is exactly what the virus has been doing since day one. Forcing one lockdown after another, because hospitals fill like it's nothing. In my city, ambulances have more in common with a private tour shuttles - jumping from one hospital to another. Yet, these antivaxers simply can't accept reality. They are like flat earthers - Earth is round below their feet, but they insist the opposite. Only instead of NASA lying to them, now it's "fascism" (like anyone can give the actual definition of this), the pharma mafia, plandemic. A bunch of delusional morons in agreement with one another doesn't make them right. But for that to be realized, you gotta have a bare minimum of neurons left in the hollow top bone.

defendfreedom 5y ago

I 100% support limiting as much as possible access to a normal life to people who don't want to get the vaccine. Yes, you're free to put the rest of us at risk because you're too afraid to get vaccinated (because fear and an inability to manage one's emotions is absolutely at the root of the antivax sentiment), but we will in response ostracize you from public life until you fulfill your civic duty. So I hope that these dangerous protests get crushed by the respective governments.

agentgumshoe 5y ago
At risk of what exactly? The unvaccinated don't automatically have covid. The vaccinated can catch, and spread covid. If you are vaccinated, why are you afraid of unvaccinated people being around you, if it is only them that will be worse off? Regardless of the ideology of the protest, you are demanding authoritarian response because you disagree. Could you see how this could have a very bad outcome down the line?
mordae 5y ago
You have suggested a divide: THEY are not unlike US in that THEY cannot regulate their emotions like US. Once you have established a higher moral ground, you have proposed to ostracize THEM from public life, until they become US. The problem is that they say we are discriminating against them, which we objectively are. Please refrain from furthering the divide and concentrate on productive strategies to mitigate the situation. Especially if you truly believe that its an issue with emotional regulation, because these usually cannot be handled safely by piling on more pressure.

gnucru 5y ago

Egg an anti-vaxxer, earn your badge, ring the bell. It is time for hospitals to start limiting access to the unvaccinated. My mommy is one of the founding pathologists of Metro McNair clinical laboratories; now LifeLabs, that does most of the blood, piss, and other medical testing in Western Canada. Dinnertime discussion as a child included family troubleshooting of faulty/unusual lab results. Is my Mommy part of this conspiracy to take people's rights away..?? Or are we giving too much airtime to selfish ignorami, because that is really what it comes down to: people thinking they are more important than everyone else, and hence immune from moral compulsion. Who do YOU listen to..???