3 ms·

> What would be really interesting is to set up a double-blind placebo study comparing the results of using antidepressants (SSRIs etc.) with the results of usi

> What would be really interesting is to set up a double-blind placebo study comparing the results of using antidepressants (SSRIs etc.) with the results of using psilocybin at similar levels. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2032994

BurningFrog 5y ago
Can you really be "blind" to taking psychedelics? Are these doses small enough that you don't notice the immediate effects?
- lexpsd9834 5y ago
  If it's correctly microdosed the acutely noticed affects should be very close to placebo. For lsd this is generally under 15~20ug, though 5ug/10ug is generally what people dose at. These dosages aren't well established with "proper studies" but I can say that people documenting there experiences seem to establish this pretty well. The psychonauts wiki is a good place for this type of information
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  At the microdose level the obvious hallucinatory effects of psychedelics are not present, so I'd imagine those without prior experience with psychedelics wouldn't immediately realize they had taken an SSRI or a psychedelic. The above comment study is pretty interesting, points to equivalent effectiveness.
  - snikeris 5y ago
    Yeah, it was interesting that they phrased the conclusion negatively: > On the basis of the change in depression scores on the QIDS-SR-16 at week 6, this trial did not show a significant difference in antidepressant effects between psilocybin and escitalopram in a selected group of patients. Secondary outcomes generally favored psilocybin over escitalopram, but the analyses of these outcomes lacked correction for multiple comparisons. Larger and longer trials are required to compare psilocybin with established antidepressants. For no significant difference in outcome, I'd much rather have two psilocybin sessions versus daily SSRI use.
- dntrkv 5y ago
  Placebo can be incredibly strong when taking low dose psychedelics, especially for inexperienced users. You begin to focus on normal parts of reality as if they aren't part of your usual experience.
JasonCannon 5y ago
>two separate doses of 25 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily placebo (psilocybin group) or two separate doses of 1 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart I don't know how this compares to similar studies (if there are any similar studies) but microdosing is almost never done 3 weeks apart. That's usually the time frame done for macro dosing (but with multiple grams not mg). Even the study at the top mentions that >Reported microdoses identifed in observational research typically range from 5 to 20 μg of LSD and from 0.1 to 0.3 g of dried psilocybin mushrooms. Microdoses are most commonly used several times a week with various patterns of alternating days.

BurningFrog 5y ago

Can you really be "blind" to taking psychedelics? Are these doses small enough that you don't notice the immediate effects?

lexpsd9834 5y ago
If it's correctly microdosed the acutely noticed affects should be very close to placebo. For lsd this is generally under 15~20ug, though 5ug/10ug is generally what people dose at. These dosages aren't well established with "proper studies" but I can say that people documenting there experiences seem to establish this pretty well. The psychonauts wiki is a good place for this type of information
photochemsyn 5y ago
At the microdose level the obvious hallucinatory effects of psychedelics are not present, so I'd imagine those without prior experience with psychedelics wouldn't immediately realize they had taken an SSRI or a psychedelic. The above comment study is pretty interesting, points to equivalent effectiveness.
- snikeris 5y ago
  Yeah, it was interesting that they phrased the conclusion negatively: > On the basis of the change in depression scores on the QIDS-SR-16 at week 6, this trial did not show a significant difference in antidepressant effects between psilocybin and escitalopram in a selected group of patients. Secondary outcomes generally favored psilocybin over escitalopram, but the analyses of these outcomes lacked correction for multiple comparisons. Larger and longer trials are required to compare psilocybin with established antidepressants. For no significant difference in outcome, I'd much rather have two psilocybin sessions versus daily SSRI use.
dntrkv 5y ago
Placebo can be incredibly strong when taking low dose psychedelics, especially for inexperienced users. You begin to focus on normal parts of reality as if they aren't part of your usual experience.

JasonCannon 5y ago

>two separate doses of 25 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart plus 6 weeks of daily placebo (psilocybin group) or two separate doses of 1 mg of psilocybin 3 weeks apart I don't know how this compares to similar studies (if there are any similar studies) but microdosing is almost never done 3 weeks apart. That's usually the time frame done for macro dosing (but with multiple grams not mg). Even the study at the top mentions that >Reported microdoses identifed in observational research typically range from 5 to 20 μg of LSD and from 0.1 to 0.3 g of dried psilocybin mushrooms. Microdoses are most commonly used several times a week with various patterns of alternating days.