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Well, I'm gonna let the personal attack part pass. Here's what I think about your points: [1] So we agree that the practice exists, though we may disagree on w

Well, I'm gonna let the personal attack part pass. Here's what I think about your points: [1] So we agree that the practice exists, though we may disagree on whether it's moral or not. [2] You are right in that it is in part cultural, but the effect of affirmative action also exists. (I think you would agree, otherwise, why not dismantle it and avoid the resentment that it brings about?) Also, culture is not autogenous. [3] Again, you are right in that you can sue anyone for anything if you have the money. But I think the claims in the lawsuit have merit (although the process is probably legal). Do you believe the diversity trackers they mentioned do not exist? [4] You have never seen someone use a footnote to share their anecdotes? :-)

dktoao 5y ago
Sorry if my post came across as a personal attack, it was just an observation by me that your sources did not seem to back up your claim and seemed to be more included to give your post immediate impact than to actually support it. If you actually read and picked these article in good faith I apologize (except for citing and anecdote, unless you did that for comedic effect). Yes, I believe that affirmative action is not only moral, but also necessary for optimal functioning of modern democracy with many disparate cultures under it's governance. Do you think we would be better off with maintaining the status quo from the 50's? I can see how affirmative action can breed resentment, I myself was resentful while getting my engineering degree to seeing the high rate of female students getting internships when I never was able to get one. It really sucks when you are working hard towards a goal and see someone else pass you up just because of circumstance (not all of which are as pure as affirmative action, such as students coming from a wealthy well-connected family, or organized cheating cough fraternities cough to get good grades). But maybe it would be better if we directed our anger towards those that are getting ahead by cheating, rather than those that are getting ahead due to society deciding that they need a boost because they come from a place in society that has been traditionally discriminated against?
- finite_jest 5y ago
  Apology totally accepted. I do genuinely think that my sources support my claim, but we all have our biases. [1] TBH, I do not have a clear understanding of how things were in the 50's, but I do not think things would go back to the 50's if affirmative action programs were discontinued. We probably can agree that there are a lot of anecdotes about this as you have one yourself. Contrary to popular belief, anecdotes and personal experiences are not worthless. I agree that our anger should be placed directed the system which enables corruption, cheating and discrimination. Blaming the ordinary individuals would be counterproductive and sanctimonious. [1]: For example, the Atlantic article does not mention affirmative action at all. You'd probably argue that's because it is not a major factor, but I think it is the elephant in the room. If I could edit my comment now, I would change "data" to "outcome data", and cite this graph https://archive.md/VwSmO https://archive.md/VwSmO. I do not see anything wrong with putting an anecdote in a footnote, however.

dktoao 5y ago

Sorry if my post came across as a personal attack, it was just an observation by me that your sources did not seem to back up your claim and seemed to be more included to give your post immediate impact than to actually support it. If you actually read and picked these article in good faith I apologize (except for citing and anecdote, unless you did that for comedic effect). Yes, I believe that affirmative action is not only moral, but also necessary for optimal functioning of modern democracy with many disparate cultures under it's governance. Do you think we would be better off with maintaining the status quo from the 50's? I can see how affirmative action can breed resentment, I myself was resentful while getting my engineering degree to seeing the high rate of female students getting internships when I never was able to get one. It really sucks when you are working hard towards a goal and see someone else pass you up just because of circumstance (not all of which are as pure as affirmative action, such as students coming from a wealthy well-connected family, or organized cheating cough fraternities cough to get good grades). But maybe it would be better if we directed our anger towards those that are getting ahead by cheating, rather than those that are getting ahead due to society deciding that they need a boost because they come from a place in society that has been traditionally discriminated against?

finite_jest 5y ago
Apology totally accepted. I do genuinely think that my sources support my claim, but we all have our biases. [1] TBH, I do not have a clear understanding of how things were in the 50's, but I do not think things would go back to the 50's if affirmative action programs were discontinued. We probably can agree that there are a lot of anecdotes about this as you have one yourself. Contrary to popular belief, anecdotes and personal experiences are not worthless. I agree that our anger should be placed directed the system which enables corruption, cheating and discrimination. Blaming the ordinary individuals would be counterproductive and sanctimonious. [1]: For example, the Atlantic article does not mention affirmative action at all. You'd probably argue that's because it is not a major factor, but I think it is the elephant in the room. If I could edit my comment now, I would change "data" to "outcome data", and cite this graph https://archive.md/VwSmO https://archive.md/VwSmO. I do not see anything wrong with putting an anecdote in a footnote, however.