4 ms·

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipe

by dktoao 5y ago

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that meant it has cut into the edge that white men have. But if in the future white men become under-represented for whatever reason, I would hope that it would work in the reverse to help give a boost. And in-fact this is already being seen in college admissions for white men vs. asian americans and females. Which leads to your second source: [2] The article points out that white men are underrepresented in college but the reason given is not affirmative action, but rather cultural. Many young men just are not making the choice to go to college (for better or for worse). It even says in TFA that "The Wall Street Journal reports that many colleges are putting their fingers _on_ the scale for male applicants", which is a direct refutation of your point. [3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true. [4] Well I have never seen anyone _cite_ an anecdote so... EDIT: Spelling and grammar

b9a2cab5 5y ago
> have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either. Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).
- dktoao 5y ago
  I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain. I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are rejected. However, that is the basic fact of life when there are 10x more applicants that open spots. I think if we really wanted to tackle this issue as a society the way to start would be to increase the availability and affordability of high quality post-primary education. Let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct that Asian Americans would be accepted at a much much higher rate if race was eliminated from the acceptance criteria, and then Harvard started evaluating application as such. Harvard would become an Asian American mono-culture to the detriment of not just white people but Hispanic, Black and other under-represented minorities. Is that a good outcome??? I'm speaking loosely because I realize "Asian American" is a quite a broad cultural generalization, but I do personally admire the work-ethic and reverence for science and intellectual pursuit that has gotten this community to where it is today, to quote Drake "You came from the bottom now your whole team here". But as a White male American, I think when you are at the top of the food chain you have a responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity, otherwise that makes you an asshole.
  - b9a2cab5 5y ago
    Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not. Society does not need more engineers going to MIT and then taking a job at Google. Society does need more genius researchers pushing the boundaries of science, but I find it very unlikely that those people are not already admitted to top schools even in the absence of affirmative action. You can claim people have potential but potential doesn't cut it when one candidate took some community college classes and the other one won a national math competition. > let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct We don't need to assume, we can look at the makeup of UC and UW schools which are legally barred from using affirmative action and are similarly ranked. They average ~50% Asian. > mono-culture Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more monocultural the population becomes. Not only is that racist, but coming from what I assume is a white liberal it seems very hypocritical. > responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity I'm happy to support income based affirmative action. As we all know, parental income plays a far larger role in SAT scores and lifetime earnings than any systemic discrimination. But racial discrimination under the guise of affirmative action is a terrible idea that doesn't actually result in better outcomes. When you admit objectively less qualified people because of a quota those less qualified people end up doing more poorly down the line in the real world. For example, even though CMU enforces a 50/50 male/female quota on its CS admits, the makeup of high paying jobs with people from CMU still ends up around the industry 80/20 male/female split, because the 20% that would have originally been qualified to get in without the quota end up doing just as well as their male counterparts that didn't have affirmative action benefits and the other 30% struggle to keep up because they weren't qualified in the first place.
    - dktoao 5y ago
      > Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not Totally agree, I would even go further and say that I think the "top tier" engineering schools are not better (actually I would argue worse because brilliant researchers aren't always brilliant teachers), they just are able to be a lot more selective with the people that they admit and that is probably the biggest factor on why they are perceived as elite. Which makes me roll my eyes at the whole "boo-hoo I didn't get into an ivy" culture that is driving all this resentment in the first place. > Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more mono-cultural the population becomes Yes and no. I am fully aware that just because I am white I am not of the same culture as another white person. And even more so are the differences between Asian cultures (I have lived and traveled in many parts of Asia). But if you take a general cross-section of people who look similar and live in the same geographical area, and compare them to a different group of people who look similar in the same area, you will find stark economic correlation between the two groups. This is why it is important to be conscious of the way that race is viewed and handled within a society. The argument that "I don't see color" is a very common sentiment amongst actual racists because 1. It makes them feel like they aren't a bad person 2. Conveniently allows them a free pass to not have to take a hard look at their ingrained racial biases > Income based affirmative action I agree, this to me seems like a much better metric for providing for affirmative action quotas, however: 1. It would result in very similar outcomes due to the economic correlation between racial groups 2. It could never happen because the American right would scream their heads off about socialism or whatever non-sense their propagandists spoon feed them. 3. Income != Wealth, and wealth is the real killer, so it also is not a silver bullet
finite_jest 5y ago
Well, I'm gonna let the personal attack part pass. Here's what I think about your points: [1] So we agree that the practice exists, though we may disagree on whether it's moral or not. [2] You are right in that it is in part cultural, but the effect of affirmative action also exists. (I think you would agree, otherwise, why not dismantle it and avoid the resentment that it brings about?) Also, culture is not autogenous. [3] Again, you are right in that you can sue anyone for anything if you have the money. But I think the claims in the lawsuit have merit (although the process is probably legal). Do you believe the diversity trackers they mentioned do not exist? [4] You have never seen someone use a footnote to share their anecdotes? :-)
- dktoao 5y ago
  Sorry if my post came across as a personal attack, it was just an observation by me that your sources did not seem to back up your claim and seemed to be more included to give your post immediate impact than to actually support it. If you actually read and picked these article in good faith I apologize (except for citing and anecdote, unless you did that for comedic effect). Yes, I believe that affirmative action is not only moral, but also necessary for optimal functioning of modern democracy with many disparate cultures under it's governance. Do you think we would be better off with maintaining the status quo from the 50's? I can see how affirmative action can breed resentment, I myself was resentful while getting my engineering degree to seeing the high rate of female students getting internships when I never was able to get one. It really sucks when you are working hard towards a goal and see someone else pass you up just because of circumstance (not all of which are as pure as affirmative action, such as students coming from a wealthy well-connected family, or organized cheating cough fraternities cough to get good grades). But maybe it would be better if we directed our anger towards those that are getting ahead by cheating, rather than those that are getting ahead due to society deciding that they need a boost because they come from a place in society that has been traditionally discriminated against?
  - finite_jest 5y ago
    Apology totally accepted. I do genuinely think that my sources support my claim, but we all have our biases. [1] TBH, I do not have a clear understanding of how things were in the 50's, but I do not think things would go back to the 50's if affirmative action programs were discontinued. We probably can agree that there are a lot of anecdotes about this as you have one yourself. Contrary to popular belief, anecdotes and personal experiences are not worthless. I agree that our anger should be placed directed the system which enables corruption, cheating and discrimination. Blaming the ordinary individuals would be counterproductive and sanctimonious. [1]: For example, the Atlantic article does not mention affirmative action at all. You'd probably argue that's because it is not a major factor, but I think it is the elephant in the room. If I could edit my comment now, I would change "data" to "outcome data", and cite this graph https://archive.md/VwSmO https://archive.md/VwSmO. I do not see anything wrong with putting an anecdote in a footnote, however.
Manuel_D 5y ago
> [3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true. The details of the case are pretty damning [1]. Directly instructing recruiters to only hire diverse candidates [2]. Explicit quotas on gender and race [3]. Managers telling recruiter to only accept candidates from "historically underrepresented" groups [4]. 1. https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wilberg-recruiter-hiring-reverse-discrimination-lawsuit https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi... 2. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/25-aaf7e58e70.jpg https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/25-aaf... 3. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/26-5c573dc382.jpg https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/26-5c5... 4. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/28-f1c2799ac5.jpg https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/28-f1c...

by dktoao 5y ago

b9a2cab5 5y ago

> have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either. Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).

dktoao 5y ago
I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain. I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are rejected. However, that is the basic fact of life when there are 10x more applicants that open spots. I think if we really wanted to tackle this issue as a society the way to start would be to increase the availability and affordability of high quality post-primary education. Let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct that Asian Americans would be accepted at a much much higher rate if race was eliminated from the acceptance criteria, and then Harvard started evaluating application as such. Harvard would become an Asian American mono-culture to the detriment of not just white people but Hispanic, Black and other under-represented minorities. Is that a good outcome??? I'm speaking loosely because I realize "Asian American" is a quite a broad cultural generalization, but I do personally admire the work-ethic and reverence for science and intellectual pursuit that has gotten this community to where it is today, to quote Drake "You came from the bottom now your whole team here". But as a White male American, I think when you are at the top of the food chain you have a responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity, otherwise that makes you an asshole.
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not. Society does not need more engineers going to MIT and then taking a job at Google. Society does need more genius researchers pushing the boundaries of science, but I find it very unlikely that those people are not already admitted to top schools even in the absence of affirmative action. You can claim people have potential but potential doesn't cut it when one candidate took some community college classes and the other one won a national math competition. > let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct We don't need to assume, we can look at the makeup of UC and UW schools which are legally barred from using affirmative action and are similarly ranked. They average ~50% Asian. > mono-culture Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more monocultural the population becomes. Not only is that racist, but coming from what I assume is a white liberal it seems very hypocritical. > responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity I'm happy to support income based affirmative action. As we all know, parental income plays a far larger role in SAT scores and lifetime earnings than any systemic discrimination. But racial discrimination under the guise of affirmative action is a terrible idea that doesn't actually result in better outcomes. When you admit objectively less qualified people because of a quota those less qualified people end up doing more poorly down the line in the real world. For example, even though CMU enforces a 50/50 male/female quota on its CS admits, the makeup of high paying jobs with people from CMU still ends up around the industry 80/20 male/female split, because the 20% that would have originally been qualified to get in without the quota end up doing just as well as their male counterparts that didn't have affirmative action benefits and the other 30% struggle to keep up because they weren't qualified in the first place.
  - dktoao 5y ago
    > Engineering is critical, going to a top engineering school is not Totally agree, I would even go further and say that I think the "top tier" engineering schools are not better (actually I would argue worse because brilliant researchers aren't always brilliant teachers), they just are able to be a lot more selective with the people that they admit and that is probably the biggest factor on why they are perceived as elite. Which makes me roll my eyes at the whole "boo-hoo I didn't get into an ivy" culture that is driving all this resentment in the first place. > Your basic premise is that the greater proportion a race is of the population, the more mono-cultural the population becomes Yes and no. I am fully aware that just because I am white I am not of the same culture as another white person. And even more so are the differences between Asian cultures (I have lived and traveled in many parts of Asia). But if you take a general cross-section of people who look similar and live in the same geographical area, and compare them to a different group of people who look similar in the same area, you will find stark economic correlation between the two groups. This is why it is important to be conscious of the way that race is viewed and handled within a society. The argument that "I don't see color" is a very common sentiment amongst actual racists because 1. It makes them feel like they aren't a bad person 2. Conveniently allows them a free pass to not have to take a hard look at their ingrained racial biases > Income based affirmative action I agree, this to me seems like a much better metric for providing for affirmative action quotas, however: 1. It would result in very similar outcomes due to the economic correlation between racial groups 2. It could never happen because the American right would scream their heads off about socialism or whatever non-sense their propagandists spoon feed them. 3. Income != Wealth, and wealth is the real killer, so it also is not a silver bullet

finite_jest 5y ago

Well, I'm gonna let the personal attack part pass. Here's what I think about your points: [1] So we agree that the practice exists, though we may disagree on whether it's moral or not. [2] You are right in that it is in part cultural, but the effect of affirmative action also exists. (I think you would agree, otherwise, why not dismantle it and avoid the resentment that it brings about?) Also, culture is not autogenous. [3] Again, you are right in that you can sue anyone for anything if you have the money. But I think the claims in the lawsuit have merit (although the process is probably legal). Do you believe the diversity trackers they mentioned do not exist? [4] You have never seen someone use a footnote to share their anecdotes? :-)

dktoao 5y ago
Sorry if my post came across as a personal attack, it was just an observation by me that your sources did not seem to back up your claim and seemed to be more included to give your post immediate impact than to actually support it. If you actually read and picked these article in good faith I apologize (except for citing and anecdote, unless you did that for comedic effect). Yes, I believe that affirmative action is not only moral, but also necessary for optimal functioning of modern democracy with many disparate cultures under it's governance. Do you think we would be better off with maintaining the status quo from the 50's? I can see how affirmative action can breed resentment, I myself was resentful while getting my engineering degree to seeing the high rate of female students getting internships when I never was able to get one. It really sucks when you are working hard towards a goal and see someone else pass you up just because of circumstance (not all of which are as pure as affirmative action, such as students coming from a wealthy well-connected family, or organized cheating cough fraternities cough to get good grades). But maybe it would be better if we directed our anger towards those that are getting ahead by cheating, rather than those that are getting ahead due to society deciding that they need a boost because they come from a place in society that has been traditionally discriminated against?
- finite_jest 5y ago
  Apology totally accepted. I do genuinely think that my sources support my claim, but we all have our biases. [1] TBH, I do not have a clear understanding of how things were in the 50's, but I do not think things would go back to the 50's if affirmative action programs were discontinued. We probably can agree that there are a lot of anecdotes about this as you have one yourself. Contrary to popular belief, anecdotes and personal experiences are not worthless. I agree that our anger should be placed directed the system which enables corruption, cheating and discrimination. Blaming the ordinary individuals would be counterproductive and sanctimonious. [1]: For example, the Atlantic article does not mention affirmative action at all. You'd probably argue that's because it is not a major factor, but I think it is the elephant in the room. If I could edit my comment now, I would change "data" to "outcome data", and cite this graph https://archive.md/VwSmO https://archive.md/VwSmO. I do not see anything wrong with putting an anecdote in a footnote, however.

Manuel_D 5y ago

> [3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true. The details of the case are pretty damning [1]. Directly instructing recruiters to only hire diverse candidates [2]. Explicit quotas on gender and race [3]. Managers telling recruiter to only accept candidates from "historically underrepresented" groups [4]. 1. https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wilberg-recruiter-hiring-reverse-discrimination-lawsuit https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/2/17070624/google-youtube-wi... 2. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/25-aaf7e58e70.jpg https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/25-aaf... 3. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/26-5c573dc382.jpg https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/26-5c5... 4. https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/28-f1c2799ac5.jpg https://html.scribdassets.com/9ngnddy96o6ahr9g/images/28-f1c...