7 ms·

Ya I seriously doubt there is much wash trading at the Tier A exchanges you listed above.

nefitty 5y ago
The market is interdependent. Wash trading on one platform benefits all other platforms. When you ask someone the price of BTC they don't say $x on Coinbase, $y on Kraken, etc. Literally all of crypto is a scam. After 10 years there is not one feasible use case that isn't done better through another tool. I don't consider "making black markets and extortion easier" a feasible use case.
- thenanyu 5y ago
  But it is a use case, along with gambling via crypto day trading. You may not like it morally and may wish for crypto to be legally banned as a result, but casinos are real and extortion is real.
  - danans 5y ago
    You are both right, but unlike crypto, casinos and crime facilitating black markets don't pretend to be something other than what they are. However, I tend to think crypto is a bit more than that: an anti institutional weapon. Therefore it's not a coincidence that crypto also serves the above use cases that specifically seek to avoid institutional oversight, or in circumstances where institutions have already failed (i.e. Venezuela). Once the illusions of anarcho-capitalist utopia dissolve, that's what's left, and crypto's fundamental market value - minus the greater fool stuff - reflects the sum of 1) the fear of and 2) enthusiasm for the destruction of institutions, with both of those pushing the value up. Stronger, trusted, adaptive, and accountable institutions that provide their societies with security and broadly shared well being will push it down.
- joshfraser 5y ago
  Oh yeah? Ever tried to send funds to a family member on the other side of the world over a weekend?
  - coding123 5y ago
    Not on the other side of the world but my parents send me through Zelle and works pretty easily - hits the account same day.
    - tata71 5y ago
      I tried Zelle the other day to send a payment. New user? Payment frozen, no recourse until Monday morning on a Friday, late afternoon. I'll stick with Coinbase, if I want centralized risk.
    - mikegreenberg 5y ago
      FWIW, cryptocurrency settles in seconds.
      - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
        https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/how-long-does-a-bitcoin-transaction-take https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/how-long-does-a... > On the Bitcoin network, the average confirmation time for a BTC payment is about 10 minutes. However, transaction times can vary wildly. This is because it is affected by factors such as the total network activity, hashrate and transaction fees. If the Bitcoin network is congested, there will be a backlog of transactions in the mempool. This would result users paying more in transaction fees to get transactions to go through faster. This occured in April 2021, where average Bitcoin transaction fees reached $59.
        mikegreenberg 5y ago
        I'm familiar with cryptocurrencies. I did not say Bitcoin. One counterexample isn't representative of current options. There are plenty of coins which clear in seconds.
  - rvnx 5y ago
    Western Union, cash money in minutes in nearly all over the world ?
- temp8964 5y ago
  What if the reason of slow adoption is traditional institutions act against it?
  - coding123 5y ago
    I don't think that's the case. There was a period of time about 5 or so years ago where you could pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere. That's all but disappeared after a wave of $100 transaction fees hit. Use case was killed by itself.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      > There was a period of time about 5 or so years ago where you could pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere. I do not recall this time at all.
      - mikegreenberg 5y ago
        Surely, that means it never happened. You must be some sort of oracle. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/pay-with-bitcoin-10-of-the-most-interesting-places-to-spend-it/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/pay-with-bitcoin-10-of-... https://money.cnn.com/2014/09/26/technology/paypal-bitcoin/ https://money.cnn.com/2014/09/26/technology/paypal-bitcoin/ https://www.businessinsider.com/dell-becomes-biggest-company-to-accept-bitcoin-internationally-2015-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/dell-becomes-biggest-company... https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/11/technology/microsoft-bitcoin/ https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/11/technology/microsoft-bitcoi...
        sokoloff 5y ago
        What’s the threshold for “pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere”? 95%? 90%? Surely the fact that articles are written about individual retailers who are now (then) taking Bitcoin is evidence against the acceptance of BTC being pervasive as a payment instrument rather than evidence in support of it.
        5y ago
- _3u10 5y ago
  Completely agree, I’d much rather lose at least 6.2% (if not 20%) in totally legitimate fiat currency inflation than see 200% returns on crypto as a result of that money printing. QE definitely isn’t wash trading.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    That's how all Ponzi schemes are marketed. "I got rich, so can you!"
    - ur-whale 5y ago
      If you are using the P word in a conversation about crypto, chances are you are not adding much value to the conversation. That particular dead horse has been beaten to a point where all is left are strictly people adhering to dogma on one side or the other of the conversation. Try tulips next, to make the picture complete.
      - nefitty 5y ago
        It's a cliché for a reason.
    - tata71 5y ago
      This is why I didn't get a desk job where I had to show up by 8am...seemed like a cyclical ponzi scheme.
    - _3u10 5y ago
      Like social security where old investors are paid out from the income of new investors? And your "investments" are just IOUs from the general revenue fund of the same company?
  - carnitine 5y ago
    How is QE even remotely wash trading?
    - _3u10 5y ago
- ishjoh 5y ago
  I would say there are four important use cases of Crypto so far. 1) NFTs - digital ownership 2) DAO - organizations without having to setup an LLC that allow voting etc 3) Accounting for low trust societies (supply chain management, etc) 4) Value store for very high inflation currencies, or states with severe problems
  - abakker 5y ago
    1. Digital ownership of a token. Digital assets can still be copied and distributed. Notions of ownership and title in digital are still inherently problematic. 2. This is probably not a feature society needs. 3. Possibly good? I'd say instead of "low trust" being the feature, "no natural owner of the database" describes the supply chain situation better. 4. maybe. USD, Gold, Etc have historically been good at this.
    - ishjoh 5y ago
      > Digital assets can still be copied and distributed. Notions of ownership and title in digital are still inherently problematic Some NFTs come with additional publishing rights for the underlying asset. For example Eminems sold an NFT that contained to the rights and a different rapper bought it to make a song with it: https://bitcoinist.com/the-rapper-who-bought-eminems-nft-for-100k-and-transformed-it-into-7m-views/ https://bitcoinist.com/the-rapper-who-bought-eminems-nft-for... I think we're going to see more stuff like this in the future. > 2. This is probably not a feature society needs You might be right, but we do allow LLCs so we do allow a more difficult way to do the same thing. There is less regulation around DAOs but that's starting to change in some states, I'm for letting the experiment run > 3. Possibly good? I think this is a net benefit > 4. maybe. USD, Gold, Etc have historically been good at this. Yeah, for this one in particular I was thinking of stable coins that are backed by USD
      - Uehreka 5y ago
        If someone sells the NFT and publishing rights to a work at the same time… couldn’t they just sell the publishing rights? It’s like you’re buying the publishing rights and getting a receipt for your purchase and people are acting like the receipt is the big deal.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  If you don't consider black markets a feasible use case you're cherrypicking.
  - nefitty 5y ago
    https://goo.gl/search/Define+feasibility&hl=en https://goo.gl/search/Define+feasibility&hl=en feasibility (noun): state or degree of being easily or conveniently done The originator, Ross Ulbricht, is in prison for life. Anything that involves any remote possibility of that is not "feasible" to me, specifically in terms of the strength of my own self-preservation instincts.
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      So because it isn't a magic bullet that makes participants bulletproof it's infeasible? Would you say dollars are infeasible as a black market tool as well? What about cocaine?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

The market is interdependent. Wash trading on one platform benefits all other platforms. When you ask someone the price of BTC they don't say $x on Coinbase, $y on Kraken, etc. Literally all of crypto is a scam. After 10 years there is not one feasible use case that isn't done better through another tool. I don't consider "making black markets and extortion easier" a feasible use case.

thenanyu 5y ago
But it is a use case, along with gambling via crypto day trading. You may not like it morally and may wish for crypto to be legally banned as a result, but casinos are real and extortion is real.
- danans 5y ago
  You are both right, but unlike crypto, casinos and crime facilitating black markets don't pretend to be something other than what they are. However, I tend to think crypto is a bit more than that: an anti institutional weapon. Therefore it's not a coincidence that crypto also serves the above use cases that specifically seek to avoid institutional oversight, or in circumstances where institutions have already failed (i.e. Venezuela). Once the illusions of anarcho-capitalist utopia dissolve, that's what's left, and crypto's fundamental market value - minus the greater fool stuff - reflects the sum of 1) the fear of and 2) enthusiasm for the destruction of institutions, with both of those pushing the value up. Stronger, trusted, adaptive, and accountable institutions that provide their societies with security and broadly shared well being will push it down.
joshfraser 5y ago
Oh yeah? Ever tried to send funds to a family member on the other side of the world over a weekend?
- coding123 5y ago
  Not on the other side of the world but my parents send me through Zelle and works pretty easily - hits the account same day.
  - tata71 5y ago
    I tried Zelle the other day to send a payment. New user? Payment frozen, no recourse until Monday morning on a Friday, late afternoon. I'll stick with Coinbase, if I want centralized risk.
  - mikegreenberg 5y ago
    FWIW, cryptocurrency settles in seconds.
    - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
      https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/how-long-does-a-bitcoin-transaction-take https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/how-long-does-a... > On the Bitcoin network, the average confirmation time for a BTC payment is about 10 minutes. However, transaction times can vary wildly. This is because it is affected by factors such as the total network activity, hashrate and transaction fees. If the Bitcoin network is congested, there will be a backlog of transactions in the mempool. This would result users paying more in transaction fees to get transactions to go through faster. This occured in April 2021, where average Bitcoin transaction fees reached $59.
      - mikegreenberg 5y ago
        I'm familiar with cryptocurrencies. I did not say Bitcoin. One counterexample isn't representative of current options. There are plenty of coins which clear in seconds.
- rvnx 5y ago
  Western Union, cash money in minutes in nearly all over the world ?
temp8964 5y ago
What if the reason of slow adoption is traditional institutions act against it?
- coding123 5y ago
  I don't think that's the case. There was a period of time about 5 or so years ago where you could pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere. That's all but disappeared after a wave of $100 transaction fees hit. Use case was killed by itself.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    > There was a period of time about 5 or so years ago where you could pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere. I do not recall this time at all.
    - mikegreenberg 5y ago
      Surely, that means it never happened. You must be some sort of oracle. https://www.techrepublic.com/article/pay-with-bitcoin-10-of-the-most-interesting-places-to-spend-it/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/pay-with-bitcoin-10-of-... https://money.cnn.com/2014/09/26/technology/paypal-bitcoin/ https://money.cnn.com/2014/09/26/technology/paypal-bitcoin/ https://www.businessinsider.com/dell-becomes-biggest-company-to-accept-bitcoin-internationally-2015-2 https://www.businessinsider.com/dell-becomes-biggest-company... https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/11/technology/microsoft-bitcoin/ https://money.cnn.com/2014/12/11/technology/microsoft-bitcoi...
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        What’s the threshold for “pay with Bitcoin almost anywhere”? 95%? 90%? Surely the fact that articles are written about individual retailers who are now (then) taking Bitcoin is evidence against the acceptance of BTC being pervasive as a payment instrument rather than evidence in support of it.
        5y ago
_3u10 5y ago
Completely agree, I’d much rather lose at least 6.2% (if not 20%) in totally legitimate fiat currency inflation than see 200% returns on crypto as a result of that money printing. QE definitely isn’t wash trading.
- nefitty 5y ago
  That's how all Ponzi schemes are marketed. "I got rich, so can you!"
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    If you are using the P word in a conversation about crypto, chances are you are not adding much value to the conversation. That particular dead horse has been beaten to a point where all is left are strictly people adhering to dogma on one side or the other of the conversation. Try tulips next, to make the picture complete.
    - nefitty 5y ago
      It's a cliché for a reason.
  - tata71 5y ago
    This is why I didn't get a desk job where I had to show up by 8am...seemed like a cyclical ponzi scheme.
  - _3u10 5y ago
    Like social security where old investors are paid out from the income of new investors? And your "investments" are just IOUs from the general revenue fund of the same company?
- carnitine 5y ago
  How is QE even remotely wash trading?
  - _3u10 5y ago
ishjoh 5y ago
I would say there are four important use cases of Crypto so far. 1) NFTs - digital ownership 2) DAO - organizations without having to setup an LLC that allow voting etc 3) Accounting for low trust societies (supply chain management, etc) 4) Value store for very high inflation currencies, or states with severe problems
- abakker 5y ago
  1. Digital ownership of a token. Digital assets can still be copied and distributed. Notions of ownership and title in digital are still inherently problematic. 2. This is probably not a feature society needs. 3. Possibly good? I'd say instead of "low trust" being the feature, "no natural owner of the database" describes the supply chain situation better. 4. maybe. USD, Gold, Etc have historically been good at this.
  - ishjoh 5y ago
    > Digital assets can still be copied and distributed. Notions of ownership and title in digital are still inherently problematic Some NFTs come with additional publishing rights for the underlying asset. For example Eminems sold an NFT that contained to the rights and a different rapper bought it to make a song with it: https://bitcoinist.com/the-rapper-who-bought-eminems-nft-for-100k-and-transformed-it-into-7m-views/ https://bitcoinist.com/the-rapper-who-bought-eminems-nft-for... I think we're going to see more stuff like this in the future. > 2. This is probably not a feature society needs You might be right, but we do allow LLCs so we do allow a more difficult way to do the same thing. There is less regulation around DAOs but that's starting to change in some states, I'm for letting the experiment run > 3. Possibly good? I think this is a net benefit > 4. maybe. USD, Gold, Etc have historically been good at this. Yeah, for this one in particular I was thinking of stable coins that are backed by USD
    - Uehreka 5y ago
      If someone sells the NFT and publishing rights to a work at the same time… couldn’t they just sell the publishing rights? It’s like you’re buying the publishing rights and getting a receipt for your purchase and people are acting like the receipt is the big deal.
betwixthewires 5y ago
If you don't consider black markets a feasible use case you're cherrypicking.
- nefitty 5y ago
  https://goo.gl/search/Define+feasibility&hl=en https://goo.gl/search/Define+feasibility&hl=en feasibility (noun): state or degree of being easily or conveniently done The originator, Ross Ulbricht, is in prison for life. Anything that involves any remote possibility of that is not "feasible" to me, specifically in terms of the strength of my own self-preservation instincts.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    So because it isn't a magic bullet that makes participants bulletproof it's infeasible? Would you say dollars are infeasible as a black market tool as well? What about cocaine?

deleted 5y ago

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