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>white people are culturally/systemically advantaged in getting those jobs (for example, those jobs are only available in predominantly-white areas or the educa

>white people are culturally/systemically advantaged in getting those jobs (for example, those jobs are only available in predominantly-white areas or the education to do the job is more accessible to white people), or white people are more fundamentally capable of programming than others. The former is a social critique, the latter is white supremacy. Or: "white" culture emphasizes values that tend to produce people who are more interested and/or more capable programmers. The same way that, say, asian immigrants are more likely to value education than other demographics. This white supremacy argument is a disingenuous appeal to the extremely negative connotation of the term and poisons the argument with a dishonest framing, as though the only possible outcome in a perfect meritocracy is equal representation. Nothing about human nature suggests this to be the case. Diversity of opinion also implies diversity of interests. The pipeline problem is not merely a question of unequal opportunity, unless you deny minorities the agency to pursue their own interests. Some groups of people value athletic achievement above intellectual achievement, and it would be unreasonable to expect those demographics to produce a proportional number of competent programmers.

beaconstudios 5y ago
I agree; I'm not saying that a perfectly fair system would produce ratios identical to demographics. There's always going to be cultural aspects (though the degree to which black and white culture in America are separate is obviously a large part a consequence of racism and slavery). The point is only to use the outcome as a heuristic for what to look into.
okwubodu 5y ago
> This white supremacy argument is a disingenuous appeal to the extremely negative connotation It's a perfectly reasonable argument, if not at times overfitted. In the US, zero (0) presidents have been born post-Civil Rights Act. In fact, Ruby Bridges [0] is only a year older than Bill Gates. So did Ruby's peers just happen to not produce programmers at the same rate as Bill's because they didn't "value" education? Hey, maybe it's true. Who knows? But the idea that a demographic whose grandparents had to be escorted by the national guard to protect them from white supremacist mobs on the way to get an education being behind in education has nothing to do with white supremacy, is ridiculous at absolute best. > The pipeline problem is not merely a question of unequal opportunity, unless you deny minorities the agency to pursue their own interests. So let's make the opportunity equal and see where the cards fall. Did the kids in my neighborhood and school find making computer games any less interesting than I did? No, but I could afford a computer. Guess where we are now, respectively. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges

beaconstudios 5y ago

I agree; I'm not saying that a perfectly fair system would produce ratios identical to demographics. There's always going to be cultural aspects (though the degree to which black and white culture in America are separate is obviously a large part a consequence of racism and slavery). The point is only to use the outcome as a heuristic for what to look into.

okwubodu 5y ago

> This white supremacy argument is a disingenuous appeal to the extremely negative connotation It's a perfectly reasonable argument, if not at times overfitted. In the US, zero (0) presidents have been born post-Civil Rights Act. In fact, Ruby Bridges [0] is only a year older than Bill Gates. So did Ruby's peers just happen to not produce programmers at the same rate as Bill's because they didn't "value" education? Hey, maybe it's true. Who knows? But the idea that a demographic whose grandparents had to be escorted by the national guard to protect them from white supremacist mobs on the way to get an education being behind in education has nothing to do with white supremacy, is ridiculous at absolute best. > The pipeline problem is not merely a question of unequal opportunity, unless you deny minorities the agency to pursue their own interests. So let's make the opportunity equal and see where the cards fall. Did the kids in my neighborhood and school find making computer games any less interesting than I did? No, but I could afford a computer. Guess where we are now, respectively. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Bridges