7 ms·

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even

I think this is a good reminder that if you are male and live in a Western country, it is quite likely that you are being overtly discriminated against. It even has an Orwellian name: "affirmative action" [1]. Women may face other types of workplace discrimination, as the article also says, but when it comes to hiring and college admissions there is overt and (mostly) legal discrimination against men. This is supported by data [2], procedure [3], and myriad anecdotes [4]. Some think this is necessary (even a moral imperative) for correcting historical injustices, but at the very least we should avoid gaslighting people and acknowledge in plain language that discrimination against men exists. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action [2]: The Atlantic: Men Are the New College Minority https://archive.md/CrAxH https://archive.md/CrAxH [3]: WSJ: YouTube Hiring for Some Positions Excluded White and Asian Men, Lawsuit Says https://archive.md/tl5lO https://archive.md/tl5lO [4]: I personally know about a brother and sister applying to the same college, where the brother got rejected with a higher GPA while the sister got in.

skulk 5y ago
Under affirmative action is a hypothesis: that it reduces inequality among communities. Has the application of affirmative action been measured and compared to its outcomes? It's been a thing for about 50 years now, so I'd like to see some data.
- bdamm 5y ago
  Didn't the Supreme Court of the United States rule that it had been effective, with their primary evidence being the election of Barak Obama? That's not a study but in terms of legal doctrine it seems to be a settled issue.
  - aerostable_slug 5y ago
    I'm not sure I take your meaning. Would you mind elaborating (not kidding - I don't quite get it)?
    - bdamm 5y ago
      Here is a report on the ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-voting-rights-act-obama https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-vo...
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Most of the discrimination seems to be against slave descendants. Barack Obama is the son of an educated African immigrant, African immigrants are doing very well in USA, about as well as Asian immigrants, so he is a part of the model minority and not the discriminated minority.
    - bdamm 5y ago
      I'm not saying it's right. I'm only saying that the supreme court has ruled on it. Frankly I think such a basis is completely absurd. We'd need to have at least four more black presidents to really show it's effectiveness. RBG once said that only once the Supreme Court happened to be entirely women would we know that we have achieved parity. And she's right!
  - todd8 5y ago
    Perhaps you're thinking of Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) a case concerning affirmative action in admissions exercised by the University of Michigan Law School. The Supreme Court decided that favoring underrepresented minority groups did not violate the 14th amendment equal protection clause. Writing for the majority, Sandra Day O'conor said "race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time," and said that the Court believed that in 25 years that limit might be reached. Ruth Bader Ginsburg agreed with the ruling but not with having a time limit. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what I'm talking about, so I suggest seeing the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger
    - bdamm 5y ago
      I'm thinking of this ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-voting-rights-act-obama https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-vo...
- newbamboo 5y ago
  I think that’s antiquated honestly. I don’t hear that justification given now, as it was decades ago. I hear more talk of “justice” and increasing diversity merely for its own sake rather than as a means to and end. Whereas the original intent was lowering the importance of race and sex in life outcomes, I don’t think anyone would espouse such a goal today. Being “color blind” has become a pejorative in the parlance of today. Wanting a color blind society, one where a persons sex is of little concern, is derided as the hallmark of racial and sexual privilege, something in need of reform. It’s hard to pinpoint where this change occur. Maybe it was doomed from the outset and racism to end racism doesn’t actually work.
stiltzkin 5y ago
Seems the UK hiring without regard to their performance is illegal, is that the case in the UK?.
dktoao 5y ago
I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that meant it has cut into the edge that white men have. But if in the future white men become under-represented for whatever reason, I would hope that it would work in the reverse to help give a boost. And in-fact this is already being seen in college admissions for white men vs. asian americans and females. Which leads to your second source: [2] The article points out that white men are underrepresented in college but the reason given is not affirmative action, but rather cultural. Many young men just are not making the choice to go to college (for better or for worse). It even says in TFA that "The Wall Street Journal reports that many colleges are putting their fingers _on_ the scale for male applicants", which is a direct refutation of your point. [3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true. [4] Well I have never seen anyone _cite_ an anecdote so... EDIT: Spelling and grammar
- b9a2cab5 5y ago
  > have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either. Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).
  - dktoao 5y ago
    I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain. I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are rejected. However, that is the basic fact of life when there are 10x more applicants that open spots. I think if we really wanted to tackle this issue as a society the way to start would be to increase the availability and affordability of high quality post-primary education. Let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct that Asian Americans would be accepted at a much much higher rate if race was eliminated from the acceptance criteria, and then Harvard started evaluating application as such. Harvard would become an Asian American mono-culture to the detriment of not just white people but Hispanic, Black and other under-represented minorities. Is that a good outcome??? I'm speaking loosely because I realize "Asian American" is a quite a broad cultural generalization, but I do personally admire the work-ethic and reverence for science and intellectual pursuit that has gotten this community to where it is today, to quote Drake "You came from the bottom now your whole team here". But as a White male American, I think when you are at the top of the food chain you have a responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity, otherwise that makes you an asshole.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

skulk 5y ago

Under affirmative action is a hypothesis: that it reduces inequality among communities. Has the application of affirmative action been measured and compared to its outcomes? It's been a thing for about 50 years now, so I'd like to see some data.

bdamm 5y ago
Didn't the Supreme Court of the United States rule that it had been effective, with their primary evidence being the election of Barak Obama? That's not a study but in terms of legal doctrine it seems to be a settled issue.
- aerostable_slug 5y ago
  I'm not sure I take your meaning. Would you mind elaborating (not kidding - I don't quite get it)?
  - bdamm 5y ago
    Here is a report on the ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-voting-rights-act-obama https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-vo...
- Jensson 5y ago
  Most of the discrimination seems to be against slave descendants. Barack Obama is the son of an educated African immigrant, African immigrants are doing very well in USA, about as well as Asian immigrants, so he is a part of the model minority and not the discriminated minority.
  - bdamm 5y ago
    I'm not saying it's right. I'm only saying that the supreme court has ruled on it. Frankly I think such a basis is completely absurd. We'd need to have at least four more black presidents to really show it's effectiveness. RBG once said that only once the Supreme Court happened to be entirely women would we know that we have achieved parity. And she's right!
- todd8 5y ago
  Perhaps you're thinking of Grutter v. Bollinger (2003) a case concerning affirmative action in admissions exercised by the University of Michigan Law School. The Supreme Court decided that favoring underrepresented minority groups did not violate the 14th amendment equal protection clause. Writing for the majority, Sandra Day O'conor said "race-conscious admissions policies must be limited in time," and said that the Court believed that in 25 years that limit might be reached. Ruth Bader Ginsburg agreed with the ruling but not with having a time limit. I'm not a lawyer so I don't know what I'm talking about, so I suggest seeing the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutter_v._Bollinger
  - bdamm 5y ago
    I'm thinking of this ruling: https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-voting-rights-act-obama https://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/jun/25/supreme-court-vo...
newbamboo 5y ago
I think that’s antiquated honestly. I don’t hear that justification given now, as it was decades ago. I hear more talk of “justice” and increasing diversity merely for its own sake rather than as a means to and end. Whereas the original intent was lowering the importance of race and sex in life outcomes, I don’t think anyone would espouse such a goal today. Being “color blind” has become a pejorative in the parlance of today. Wanting a color blind society, one where a persons sex is of little concern, is derided as the hallmark of racial and sexual privilege, something in need of reform. It’s hard to pinpoint where this change occur. Maybe it was doomed from the outset and racism to end racism doesn’t actually work.

stiltzkin 5y ago

Seems the UK hiring without regard to their performance is illegal, is that the case in the UK?.

dktoao 5y ago

I see this hot take way too often and I take it that you didn't read any of your sources to see if they actually supported your claim. Because: [1] Yes, Wikipedia confirms that affirmative action is a thing societies across the world engage in it to try to have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society. And yes, in America since the practice became enshrined in law that meant it has cut into the edge that white men have. But if in the future white men become under-represented for whatever reason, I would hope that it would work in the reverse to help give a boost. And in-fact this is already being seen in college admissions for white men vs. asian americans and females. Which leads to your second source: [2] The article points out that white men are underrepresented in college but the reason given is not affirmative action, but rather cultural. Many young men just are not making the choice to go to college (for better or for worse). It even says in TFA that "The Wall Street Journal reports that many colleges are putting their fingers _on_ the scale for male applicants", which is a direct refutation of your point. [3] I could file a lawsuit against the state that says politicians are colluding with martian men to keep taco prices down. That doesn't make it true. [4] Well I have never seen anyone _cite_ an anecdote so... EDIT: Spelling and grammar

b9a2cab5 5y ago
> have a representative cross section of the population engaged in critical aspects of society I didn't realize making people click on ads was a critical aspect of society (FAANG firms use DEI tactics to preference URMs). Getting an undergrad education in engineering at a top school isn't a critical aspect either. Instead of focusing on white men, why don't you take a look at the stats around Asian men? Or Asians in general? The Harvard affirmative action lawsuit revealed the extent to which affirmative action is a grossly discriminative policy that unreasonably raises admission standards for certain demographics to enforce a quota (and quotas are illegal according to the Supreme Court).
- dktoao 5y ago
  I somewhat agree with your first point about ad-clicking, but I think there is some nuance that you are missing, primarily the fact that all of engineering isn't web design. However, I am fascinated to find that you think that engineering know how isn't a critical aspect of modern societies? Please explain. I agree that it isn't good that motivated and qualified people that really want to go to a top tier college are rejected. However, that is the basic fact of life when there are 10x more applicants that open spots. I think if we really wanted to tackle this issue as a society the way to start would be to increase the availability and affordability of high quality post-primary education. Let's assume that the lawsuit's basic premise is correct that Asian Americans would be accepted at a much much higher rate if race was eliminated from the acceptance criteria, and then Harvard started evaluating application as such. Harvard would become an Asian American mono-culture to the detriment of not just white people but Hispanic, Black and other under-represented minorities. Is that a good outcome??? I'm speaking loosely because I realize "Asian American" is a quite a broad cultural generalization, but I do personally admire the work-ethic and reverence for science and intellectual pursuit that has gotten this community to where it is today, to quote Drake "You came from the bottom now your whole team here". But as a White male American, I think when you are at the top of the food chain you have a responsibility to see to it that those who are not have an opportunity, otherwise that makes you an asshole.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]