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Yes. Companies can conduct themselves unethically, but that doesn’t absolve customers who are the source of demand for unethical products. We must condemn equa

by jl6 5y ago

Yes. Companies can conduct themselves unethically, but that doesn’t absolve customers who are the source of demand for unethical products. We must condemn equally the rhino poachers and the horn-buyers.

spencerflem 5y ago
This is much harder to do when Rhino Horn is included in every product you need to live. It is simply not feasible to expect individuals to research the supply chains and environmental impact of every product we buy. Not to mention that with most products being made buy a few large companies for many classes of item there just aren't reasonable green alternatives.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  If you are just quibbling over whether to buy a Tesla or an Audi then you have completely missed the bigger picture. There are plenty of choices that are obviously better. Buy a bike rather than a car. A small house rather than a big one. Holiday locally rather than flying.
  - spencerflem 5y ago
    These are all very valuable! But they don't affect the massive amount of pollution put out by companies.
- jl6 5y ago
  It's not easy, and it's probably impossible to do perfectly, but right now we have too many people shrugging "darn corporations, amirite?" and then doing nothing. Everyone can make some positive change. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to move the needle, and in doing so we can unlock the next layer of feasible actions.
  - MickerNews 5y ago
    If every single person made some positive change and moved the needle... then nothing else would happen. Because there's profit to be made, the issue is global capitalism. Environmental disaster is just a side effect.
    - jl6 5y ago
      I hope there aren’t too many people waiting for capitalism to be overthrown before taking personal actions.
      - spencerflem 5y ago
        you can do both, it's not an either-or thing
  - spencerflem 5y ago
    Why is the next layer of feasible actions blocked by not enough people buying fair-trade recycled jackets from Pategonia? To be clear, I do think everyone is capable of making positive change in this way but just 'moving the needle' isn't nearly enough and I don't see why we can't simultaneously push for a very sensible carbon tax and additional environmental protections. Especially since the biggest polluting companies are so big because everyone buys from them and there are not many alternatives. Saying the problem is that we are buying from these companies seems as much a "darn consumers, amirite?" shrug. Point is- we should do both. But expecting all consumers to be able to make an informed choice about the entire ecological effects of every product is not possible when there often isn't information or a choice. Especially since under the current system companies are actively incentives to pollute as much as possible since they don't pay the cost of cleanup, and to lie about it with glitzy ads and campaigns.
godshatter 5y ago
This is my thought when I see people railing against the fossil fuel companies like they are purposefully trying to force a product on us we don't want or need solely in an effort to watch the world burn. Oil is a dense fuel source that is easily transported. If we somehow magically permanently capped all current and future oil wells today we'd be in the middle of a crisis that would dwarf any concerns we might have about climate change down the road. We're making great progress on renewable energy sources, but we're not there yet. More protests isn't going to change that. Personally I wish we'd go all-in on nuclear power and work to remove the road blocks that make that so expensive and take so long to bring up new power plants, so that we could add that to the mix and get to the point where a complete loss of the flow of oil wouldn't end civilization as we know it.
- spencerflem 5y ago
  By your own admission, the problem is that we aren't investing nearly enough into renewable energy. I'd also add to that list requiring companies to pay for their externalities via a carbon tax or something similar. Why are these not worth protesting over? And yes, oil companies are forcing it on us by blocking progress for renewables paying off politicians and using fracking which is one of the most polluting things possible. Nobody is suggesting we turn off all oil wells immediately. But the pace of progress is FAR too slow given that we've known the issues since the 60s. How do you suggest getting renewable energy plants constructed if not via protests

by jl6 5y ago

spencerflem 5y ago

This is much harder to do when Rhino Horn is included in every product you need to live. It is simply not feasible to expect individuals to research the supply chains and environmental impact of every product we buy. Not to mention that with most products being made buy a few large companies for many classes of item there just aren't reasonable green alternatives.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
If you are just quibbling over whether to buy a Tesla or an Audi then you have completely missed the bigger picture. There are plenty of choices that are obviously better. Buy a bike rather than a car. A small house rather than a big one. Holiday locally rather than flying.
- spencerflem 5y ago
  These are all very valuable! But they don't affect the massive amount of pollution put out by companies.
jl6 5y ago
It's not easy, and it's probably impossible to do perfectly, but right now we have too many people shrugging "darn corporations, amirite?" and then doing nothing. Everyone can make some positive change. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to move the needle, and in doing so we can unlock the next layer of feasible actions.
- MickerNews 5y ago
  If every single person made some positive change and moved the needle... then nothing else would happen. Because there's profit to be made, the issue is global capitalism. Environmental disaster is just a side effect.
  - jl6 5y ago
    I hope there aren’t too many people waiting for capitalism to be overthrown before taking personal actions.
    - spencerflem 5y ago
      you can do both, it's not an either-or thing
- spencerflem 5y ago
  Why is the next layer of feasible actions blocked by not enough people buying fair-trade recycled jackets from Pategonia? To be clear, I do think everyone is capable of making positive change in this way but just 'moving the needle' isn't nearly enough and I don't see why we can't simultaneously push for a very sensible carbon tax and additional environmental protections. Especially since the biggest polluting companies are so big because everyone buys from them and there are not many alternatives. Saying the problem is that we are buying from these companies seems as much a "darn consumers, amirite?" shrug. Point is- we should do both. But expecting all consumers to be able to make an informed choice about the entire ecological effects of every product is not possible when there often isn't information or a choice. Especially since under the current system companies are actively incentives to pollute as much as possible since they don't pay the cost of cleanup, and to lie about it with glitzy ads and campaigns.

godshatter 5y ago

This is my thought when I see people railing against the fossil fuel companies like they are purposefully trying to force a product on us we don't want or need solely in an effort to watch the world burn. Oil is a dense fuel source that is easily transported. If we somehow magically permanently capped all current and future oil wells today we'd be in the middle of a crisis that would dwarf any concerns we might have about climate change down the road. We're making great progress on renewable energy sources, but we're not there yet. More protests isn't going to change that. Personally I wish we'd go all-in on nuclear power and work to remove the road blocks that make that so expensive and take so long to bring up new power plants, so that we could add that to the mix and get to the point where a complete loss of the flow of oil wouldn't end civilization as we know it.

spencerflem 5y ago
By your own admission, the problem is that we aren't investing nearly enough into renewable energy. I'd also add to that list requiring companies to pay for their externalities via a carbon tax or something similar. Why are these not worth protesting over? And yes, oil companies are forcing it on us by blocking progress for renewables paying off politicians and using fracking which is one of the most polluting things possible. Nobody is suggesting we turn off all oil wells immediately. But the pace of progress is FAR too slow given that we've known the issues since the 60s. How do you suggest getting renewable energy plants constructed if not via protests