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Actively refusing is the least passive/neutral thing they could have done. Now they’ve obligated themselves (morally) to refuse Chinese political meeting booki

Actively refusing is the least passive/neutral thing they could have done. Now they’ve obligated themselves (morally) to refuse Chinese political meeting bookings as well, but we won’t see that happen Opinion: Due to Chinese human rights abuses AND the threats against American business, the US should not attend the upcoming Beijing Olympics

crobertsbmw 5y ago
Athletes from the USA. I like it.
throwaway894345 5y ago
> Opinion: Due to Chinese human rights abuses AND the threats against American business, the US should not attend the upcoming Beijing Olympics In a vacuum, I fully agree with protesting China to the fullest extent; however, if scientists are to be believed, these things (human rights, trade, etc violations) trifle in comparison to the climate change threat, and China has all of humanity by the throat here. We need a cooperative relationship with China for the coming decades, since we can't just move our manufacturing (and thus its pollution) out of China overnight and the climate can't wait for a more gradual approach. EDIT: Looks like I struck a nerve. Folks, believe me, I don't like the idea of letting China off the hook in the short term for its violations, but if anyone has ideas for holding China accountable while also getting it to meet emissions targets, I'm all ears.
- foobar2021 5y ago
  What’s that quote? It’s something along the lines of “the way to get good people to accept or do evil things is to convince them that the end justifies the means”
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    I think that's a good general principle, but I think the magnitude of the climate change threat and its timelines are exceptional. This principle doesn't generalize to it in my mind, but I'd be happy to hear how we can apply this principle and save the planet.
- anoonmoose 5y ago
  Am I to understand that you think we need to turn a blind eye to the bad things that China is doing to their own people so that we have a chance of convincing them to stop doing bad things to the rest of the world?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Not quite. The idea is that climate change poses an existential threat to human civilization as we know it. As bad as China's human rights abuses are, they pale in comparison to its climate abuses. If you have ideas for compelling China to reduce its emissions to meet targets while also holding them accountable for their various other violations, I'm all ears.
    - artificialLimbs 5y ago
      >> they pale in comparison to its climate abuses Ah yes, the old "murdering a few people now is less of a problem than potentially murdering more people down the road" argument.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        Yeah, I guess in my mind it’s worth finding face-saving means to alleviate Uyghur suffering in order to save humanity as we know it. But again I ask: what is your solution?
        weare138 5y ago
        It's not our responsibility you refute your claims. It's yours to prove them. How is turning a blind eye to China's human rights abuses going to force their hand when it comes to climate change? What exactly is your plan here? Clearly explain how we get from point A to point B. And when has this strategy ever worked? We did the same thing with Poland in WWII and look where that got us. You can't make deals with despots.
        5y ago
- FredPret 5y ago
  This would work about as well as appeasing the Nazis did
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Here are a couple of not-rhetorical questions for you: * Which is worse in your mind? China's treatment of the Uyghurs or global civilizational collapse? * Does holding China accountable for its treatment of Uyghurs increase or decrease the likelihood that China will cooperate on climate?
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      You're being silly. The US can quietly cancel China by just banning them from US capital markets. Trump almost did, but ran out of time. China will never "cooperate on climate" since they have 3,000 coal electric plants (6x the US.)
    - betwixthewires 5y ago
      Not who you're asking but I feel like answering on my own behalf. 1) the treatment of the Uyghurs, hands down. Sometimes standing on your principles is what you have to do. Justice be done though the heavens may fall. 2) neither. China will do nothing that makes it harder for them to become the dominant economic, social and military force on earth. If burning coal gets them there that's what they'll do, and if lip service buys them time that's what they'll do. In case you haven't noticed, nobody is holding their feet to the fire on climate change. Turning a blind eye to genocide is not about climate change, it is about access to the lucrative Chinese middle class.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      China is a dictatorship. If civilizational collapse or not depends on the mood of the Pooh Bear, we’re fucked. Luckily, it does not. Manufacturing is already shifting out of China to multiple other countries, and with increasing automation, might even end up back in the West. We’ll almost certainly have to do a combo of the following anyway: - limit emissions as much as possible using nuclear and solar - scrape carbon et al out of the atmosphere somehow - take a certain amount of warming on the chin and roll with it… again, somehow Luckily, our species is incredibly resourceful at coming up with hail-mary’s when our lives are on the line (past examples are global trade, fertilizers, vaccines, WW2)
- anm89 5y ago
  Hey, pollution is bad, so let's just forget about every other issue affecting humanity.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Sometimes bad things vary in severity.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Using whatsboutism to whitewash the influence of a foreign power in free speech is gross. What makes you think that you’ll be able to talk about climate change if the Chinese Communist Party decides doing so is against their interest?
officeplant 5y ago
Given the issues with the Olympics in general no one should attend.
- criddell 5y ago
  I believe there are new calls to boycott because of Peng Shuai's disappearance. It seems so strange to me that this is such a mystery. Can't reporters go to her home and ring the bell?
  - tata71 5y ago
    Think about what country they'd be doing this in.
    - criddell 5y ago
      If the government isn't lying, then there's no reason for any reporter to be worried, right? Is the fact that no reporter is doing this essentially proof that the government is lying? Set aside the reporter question - surely she has some colleagues, friends, and family for whom it would not be unexpected for them to stop by?
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    I remember seeing some YouTube video that politically sensitive people are under "house arrest" in a high-rise apartment, and there are plain clothes police who guard the entrance (the apartment buildings have another gate at the beginning of the neighborhood, like a US gated community) and probably check the ID of unknown faces, ask them who they're there to see, and can refuse entry. If you said "I'm just here to see Joe Sixpack" they'll probably ask Joe if he knew you... Also, getting even a tourist/any kind of visa if your occupation is "journalist" is hard enough, I think they'd probably google you and see what you've written about China...

crobertsbmw 5y ago

Athletes from the USA. I like it.

throwaway894345 5y ago

> Opinion: Due to Chinese human rights abuses AND the threats against American business, the US should not attend the upcoming Beijing Olympics In a vacuum, I fully agree with protesting China to the fullest extent; however, if scientists are to be believed, these things (human rights, trade, etc violations) trifle in comparison to the climate change threat, and China has all of humanity by the throat here. We need a cooperative relationship with China for the coming decades, since we can't just move our manufacturing (and thus its pollution) out of China overnight and the climate can't wait for a more gradual approach. EDIT: Looks like I struck a nerve. Folks, believe me, I don't like the idea of letting China off the hook in the short term for its violations, but if anyone has ideas for holding China accountable while also getting it to meet emissions targets, I'm all ears.

foobar2021 5y ago
What’s that quote? It’s something along the lines of “the way to get good people to accept or do evil things is to convince them that the end justifies the means”
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  I think that's a good general principle, but I think the magnitude of the climate change threat and its timelines are exceptional. This principle doesn't generalize to it in my mind, but I'd be happy to hear how we can apply this principle and save the planet.
anoonmoose 5y ago
Am I to understand that you think we need to turn a blind eye to the bad things that China is doing to their own people so that we have a chance of convincing them to stop doing bad things to the rest of the world?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Not quite. The idea is that climate change poses an existential threat to human civilization as we know it. As bad as China's human rights abuses are, they pale in comparison to its climate abuses. If you have ideas for compelling China to reduce its emissions to meet targets while also holding them accountable for their various other violations, I'm all ears.
  - artificialLimbs 5y ago
    >> they pale in comparison to its climate abuses Ah yes, the old "murdering a few people now is less of a problem than potentially murdering more people down the road" argument.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Yeah, I guess in my mind it’s worth finding face-saving means to alleviate Uyghur suffering in order to save humanity as we know it. But again I ask: what is your solution?
      - weare138 5y ago
        It's not our responsibility you refute your claims. It's yours to prove them. How is turning a blind eye to China's human rights abuses going to force their hand when it comes to climate change? What exactly is your plan here? Clearly explain how we get from point A to point B. And when has this strategy ever worked? We did the same thing with Poland in WWII and look where that got us. You can't make deals with despots.
        5y ago
FredPret 5y ago
This would work about as well as appeasing the Nazis did
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Here are a couple of not-rhetorical questions for you: * Which is worse in your mind? China's treatment of the Uyghurs or global civilizational collapse? * Does holding China accountable for its treatment of Uyghurs increase or decrease the likelihood that China will cooperate on climate?
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    You're being silly. The US can quietly cancel China by just banning them from US capital markets. Trump almost did, but ran out of time. China will never "cooperate on climate" since they have 3,000 coal electric plants (6x the US.)
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    Not who you're asking but I feel like answering on my own behalf. 1) the treatment of the Uyghurs, hands down. Sometimes standing on your principles is what you have to do. Justice be done though the heavens may fall. 2) neither. China will do nothing that makes it harder for them to become the dominant economic, social and military force on earth. If burning coal gets them there that's what they'll do, and if lip service buys them time that's what they'll do. In case you haven't noticed, nobody is holding their feet to the fire on climate change. Turning a blind eye to genocide is not about climate change, it is about access to the lucrative Chinese middle class.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    China is a dictatorship. If civilizational collapse or not depends on the mood of the Pooh Bear, we’re fucked. Luckily, it does not. Manufacturing is already shifting out of China to multiple other countries, and with increasing automation, might even end up back in the West. We’ll almost certainly have to do a combo of the following anyway: - limit emissions as much as possible using nuclear and solar - scrape carbon et al out of the atmosphere somehow - take a certain amount of warming on the chin and roll with it… again, somehow Luckily, our species is incredibly resourceful at coming up with hail-mary’s when our lives are on the line (past examples are global trade, fertilizers, vaccines, WW2)
anm89 5y ago
Hey, pollution is bad, so let's just forget about every other issue affecting humanity.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Sometimes bad things vary in severity.
Spooky23 5y ago
Using whatsboutism to whitewash the influence of a foreign power in free speech is gross. What makes you think that you’ll be able to talk about climate change if the Chinese Communist Party decides doing so is against their interest?

officeplant 5y ago

Given the issues with the Olympics in general no one should attend.

criddell 5y ago
I believe there are new calls to boycott because of Peng Shuai's disappearance. It seems so strange to me that this is such a mystery. Can't reporters go to her home and ring the bell?
- tata71 5y ago
  Think about what country they'd be doing this in.
  - criddell 5y ago
    If the government isn't lying, then there's no reason for any reporter to be worried, right? Is the fact that no reporter is doing this essentially proof that the government is lying? Set aside the reporter question - surely she has some colleagues, friends, and family for whom it would not be unexpected for them to stop by?
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  I remember seeing some YouTube video that politically sensitive people are under "house arrest" in a high-rise apartment, and there are plain clothes police who guard the entrance (the apartment buildings have another gate at the beginning of the neighborhood, like a US gated community) and probably check the ID of unknown faces, ask them who they're there to see, and can refuse entry. If you said "I'm just here to see Joe Sixpack" they'll probably ask Joe if he knew you... Also, getting even a tourist/any kind of visa if your occupation is "journalist" is hard enough, I think they'd probably google you and see what you've written about China...