4 ms·

I'm not disputing the article. Discrimination happens. Humans are human. But let's not lose sight or minimize that women are (currently and historically) discr

I'm not disputing the article. Discrimination happens. Humans are human. But let's not lose sight or minimize that women are (currently and historically) discriminated against on a scale that dwarfs this - in hiring, salary, and society at large.

kwere 5y ago
as society change, its discriminations do too, we need to move from the idea of women being weak and good angels bcs a lot of womens in the first world can and will use their power as they want (not always in angelic ways)
wonderwonder 5y ago
Why would acknowledging that men are discriminated against minimize the concern for discrimination against women? Its ok to focus on more than 1 thing. Discrimination is wrong, never really understood the purpose of 'whataboutism'.
- donohoe 5y ago
  I am not saying that. But there are many (typically men's rights orgs) who seize on stories like this to say that 'enough is enough and truly it is us men who are being marginalized [in ways beyond what the article says]' and thats not at all true.
  - teddyh 5y ago
    Then please argue with those people when and where you encounter them.
    - donohoe 5y ago
      I will. I predict we will see it in the comments here - likely throwaway amounts. That is why I was calling for a sense of perspective in advance.
      - cronix 5y ago
        5,000 years from now you can still say "let's not forget, once upon a time..." It just doesn't really add anything to the current topic.
      - teddyh 5y ago
        Now that this thread has fallen off the front page, and there are no more comments, we can see that you did not answer any commenters here. Either you never planned to do this, and just wanted to stir up trouble, or you were wrong about there being such comments, either from throwaways or not.
        donohoe 5y ago
        I intended to. I didn't. Life gets in the way. I think my larger point remains true. There are a lot more people arguing that men suffer almost equally in discrimination or women have it better, then I had expected. All of them by men.
        ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
        Yet you did find the time to come back and answer his comment :) > All of them by men. You are also a man, and I'm sure you're aware that there are much stronger cultural narratives around men rescuing women than the other way around. A bit of introspection is needed here.
        teddyh 5y ago
        How do you know the gender of people here? Or are you, again, talking about people who are not here?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        wonderwonder 5y ago
        I'm sorry but I have to: *tips fedora, M'Lady
  - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
    Men are marginalized in many ways beyond what this one article says - education, criminal justice, mental health to name but a few broad areas. Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. Happy International Men's Day.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      > Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. This is the same intolerant gatekeeping that I loathe in the feminist camp. Everyone has a voice, anyone can participate, no one-person gets to define "the" problem, let alone label/dehumanize people as being problems.
      - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
        > no one-person gets to define "the" problem Well of course, this is not a dictatorship and I'm not a dictator. I'm stating my opinion on a forum. In the same way flat-Earthers have no place teaching astronomy, someone who believes the pay gap is women getting paid less for the same work has no place teaching sociology. That is intolerant, but so it should be. Gatekeeping is inevitable and necessary, the problem is that the wrong people currently hold the keys. You can find yourself locked out for stating that the wage gap is one side of a compromise, or that men get harsher criminal punishments (for the same crimes), or that female-perpetrated sexual abuse has been grossly undercounted (my personal grievance). If we want to confront these issues, then the existing gatekeepers need to be replaced, not tolerated.
        Chris2048 5y ago
        But fields of science/academia have factual authority that a random persons' opinion does not. The "conversation", which I assume to be the societal conversation i.e. marketplace of ideas is explicitly a free, and public one.
      - mpweiher 5y ago
        It's perfectly OK to "gatekeep" against falsehoods and those who spread those falsehoods. In fact, a functioning society depends on weeding out falsehoods, otherwise everything goes down the toilet.
  - rmak 5y ago
    Well, if I ever want to be marginalized I want it to be like how women are marginalized, specially in the West. Only marginalized group to have better education and healthcare funding, lives longer than their oppressors, have more legal rights than their oppressors plus vast majority of tax benefits directed towards them as well. Yeah, historically men were forced to work 12 hours in coal mines, oil rigs, garbage dumps, forests, in deep seas with next to nothing safety equipment and with no regulations while women were forced to stay in their homes with their children. Where can I sign up for this kind of discrimination?
  - natpalmer1776 5y ago
    So call out articles from those organizations that are creating a false narrative. "Getting ahead of the curve" on articles like this only serve to muddy the waters even further and create more opportunities for bad faith arguments.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    In other words, there are some MRAs that minimise discrimination against women, so you must do the same in opposition? Why not instead lend support to MRAs that don't do this, and attack all marginalization?
lucaspm98 5y ago
Historically, completely agreed. Your other points of hiring, salary, and society at large I would not agree with outside of some edge cases that still need to be cleaned up.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > Historically, completely agreed Even historically speaking, that's a stretch. For a long period of human history, survival meant being able to plow fields, wrangle horses, chop down trees, hunt wooly mammoths, fight lions and all the other things that my ancestors would be ashamed of me for not being able to do. Men were expected to, and did, protect and provide for women because most men find those tasks easier than most women. Not even the hardest feminist would call that protection "discriminatory". It's only been relatively recently, on a grand scale, that most women could perform the tasks that needed to be performed to survive. More or less as soon as that happened, most of civilization became egalitarian almost overnight. There was some pushback in the 70's but as Bill Maher pointed out "we couldn't understand what you were rebelling against! Men in my father's day used to say 'I'll be damned if any wife of mine ever has to go to work!'"
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
heisenbit 5y ago
Are you sure? At least here in Germany women are getting retirement earlier and tend to be living longer. There are also studies of health complaints by women taken more serious by doctors than health concerns of men. And I don‘t remember women of my generation having to work one year for almost free in military giving women one year professional experience head-start.

kwere 5y ago

as society change, its discriminations do too, we need to move from the idea of women being weak and good angels bcs a lot of womens in the first world can and will use their power as they want (not always in angelic ways)

wonderwonder 5y ago

Why would acknowledging that men are discriminated against minimize the concern for discrimination against women? Its ok to focus on more than 1 thing. Discrimination is wrong, never really understood the purpose of 'whataboutism'.

donohoe 5y ago
I am not saying that. But there are many (typically men's rights orgs) who seize on stories like this to say that 'enough is enough and truly it is us men who are being marginalized [in ways beyond what the article says]' and thats not at all true.
- teddyh 5y ago
  Then please argue with those people when and where you encounter them.
  - donohoe 5y ago
    I will. I predict we will see it in the comments here - likely throwaway amounts. That is why I was calling for a sense of perspective in advance.
    - cronix 5y ago
      5,000 years from now you can still say "let's not forget, once upon a time..." It just doesn't really add anything to the current topic.
    - teddyh 5y ago
      Now that this thread has fallen off the front page, and there are no more comments, we can see that you did not answer any commenters here. Either you never planned to do this, and just wanted to stir up trouble, or you were wrong about there being such comments, either from throwaways or not.
      - donohoe 5y ago
        I intended to. I didn't. Life gets in the way. I think my larger point remains true. There are a lot more people arguing that men suffer almost equally in discrimination or women have it better, then I had expected. All of them by men.
        ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
        Yet you did find the time to come back and answer his comment :) > All of them by men. You are also a man, and I'm sure you're aware that there are much stronger cultural narratives around men rescuing women than the other way around. A bit of introspection is needed here.
        teddyh 5y ago
        How do you know the gender of people here? Or are you, again, talking about people who are not here?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        wonderwonder 5y ago
        I'm sorry but I have to: *tips fedora, M'Lady
- ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
  Men are marginalized in many ways beyond what this one article says - education, criminal justice, mental health to name but a few broad areas. Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. Happy International Men's Day.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    > Anyone who says otherwise is part of the problem and should have no voice in this conversation. This is the same intolerant gatekeeping that I loathe in the feminist camp. Everyone has a voice, anyone can participate, no one-person gets to define "the" problem, let alone label/dehumanize people as being problems.
    - ZGDUwpqEWpUZ 5y ago
      > no one-person gets to define "the" problem Well of course, this is not a dictatorship and I'm not a dictator. I'm stating my opinion on a forum. In the same way flat-Earthers have no place teaching astronomy, someone who believes the pay gap is women getting paid less for the same work has no place teaching sociology. That is intolerant, but so it should be. Gatekeeping is inevitable and necessary, the problem is that the wrong people currently hold the keys. You can find yourself locked out for stating that the wage gap is one side of a compromise, or that men get harsher criminal punishments (for the same crimes), or that female-perpetrated sexual abuse has been grossly undercounted (my personal grievance). If we want to confront these issues, then the existing gatekeepers need to be replaced, not tolerated.
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        But fields of science/academia have factual authority that a random persons' opinion does not. The "conversation", which I assume to be the societal conversation i.e. marketplace of ideas is explicitly a free, and public one.
    - mpweiher 5y ago
      It's perfectly OK to "gatekeep" against falsehoods and those who spread those falsehoods. In fact, a functioning society depends on weeding out falsehoods, otherwise everything goes down the toilet.
- rmak 5y ago
  Well, if I ever want to be marginalized I want it to be like how women are marginalized, specially in the West. Only marginalized group to have better education and healthcare funding, lives longer than their oppressors, have more legal rights than their oppressors plus vast majority of tax benefits directed towards them as well. Yeah, historically men were forced to work 12 hours in coal mines, oil rigs, garbage dumps, forests, in deep seas with next to nothing safety equipment and with no regulations while women were forced to stay in their homes with their children. Where can I sign up for this kind of discrimination?
- natpalmer1776 5y ago
  So call out articles from those organizations that are creating a false narrative. "Getting ahead of the curve" on articles like this only serve to muddy the waters even further and create more opportunities for bad faith arguments.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  In other words, there are some MRAs that minimise discrimination against women, so you must do the same in opposition? Why not instead lend support to MRAs that don't do this, and attack all marginalization?

lucaspm98 5y ago

Historically, completely agreed. Your other points of hiring, salary, and society at large I would not agree with outside of some edge cases that still need to be cleaned up.

commandlinefan 5y ago
> Historically, completely agreed Even historically speaking, that's a stretch. For a long period of human history, survival meant being able to plow fields, wrangle horses, chop down trees, hunt wooly mammoths, fight lions and all the other things that my ancestors would be ashamed of me for not being able to do. Men were expected to, and did, protect and provide for women because most men find those tasks easier than most women. Not even the hardest feminist would call that protection "discriminatory". It's only been relatively recently, on a grand scale, that most women could perform the tasks that needed to be performed to survive. More or less as soon as that happened, most of civilization became egalitarian almost overnight. There was some pushback in the 70's but as Bill Maher pointed out "we couldn't understand what you were rebelling against! Men in my father's day used to say 'I'll be damned if any wife of mine ever has to go to work!'"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

heisenbit 5y ago

Are you sure? At least here in Germany women are getting retirement earlier and tend to be living longer. There are also studies of health complaints by women taken more serious by doctors than health concerns of men. And I don‘t remember women of my generation having to work one year for almost free in military giving women one year professional experience head-start.