4 ms·

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safel

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.

twoslide 5y ago
Education is completely the same: compare teachers to principals or education professors (and within universities, assistant to full professors)
lucaspm98 5y ago
One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited potential path as an independent artist. A small fraction of independent artists become rich and famous, or even have a sustainable career, but you'll hear about the few that actually make it. In this scenario there may be more male success stories, but there will be an even greater number of failures. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/
- endymi0n 5y ago
  Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.
  - sundvor 5y ago
    Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.
    - vanderZwan 5y ago
      Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.
      - at_a_remove 5y ago
        Oh, usually when one corners them in a debate they will grudgingly mumble something about the draft, but find me a spontaneous protest that the draft only inducts men, or about circumcision! They can be badgered into it but they have no actual vigor for it. I did find the various -- when the idea that the draft would apply in the US to women -- responses of "This isn't the kind of equality I wanted" very amusing in a bitterly cynical way.
        groby_b 5y ago
        The draft is very low on most people's protest agenda because it's a coercive thing. Very few people will argue for more coercion, and especially not towards violence. Meanwhile, women have fought long and hard to be accepted as equals in the (voluntary) military. And you will find many supporters if instead the selective service, you'd support e.g a year of mandatory social service. You'll also find support to abandon the draft. (it's a highly unnecessary measure in the face of a professional military). You might even find support to have an egalitarian draft if we move further away from a professional military and instead institute mandatory military service. But "here's a really bad idea that disproportionality affects a specific group, we should double down to affect more groups negatively" just isn't a proposition appealing to many people - male or female.
        zepto 5y ago
        > The draft is very low on most people's protest agenda because it's a coercive thing. Very few people will argue for more coercion, and especially not towards violence. But this is pretty much the same reason that we don’t see outcry about the lack of women working on garbage trucks: it’s not a desirable thing.
  - JPKab 5y ago
    Nobody looks at the imbalance in incarceration rates and assumes that police and the justice system are systemically sexist against men, but they certainly draw that conclusion along racial lines based on the same outcome.
    - ryanlol 5y ago
      Funnily enough this has been extensively studied, the systemic sexism against men in the justice system is a proven fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337844261_Sentencing_Gender_Investigating_the_Presence_of_Gender_Disparities_in_Crown_Court_Sentences https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337844261_Sentencin... https://crimsoc.hull.ac.uk/2020/06/18/gender-differences-and-sentencing/ https://crimsoc.hull.ac.uk/2020/06/18/gender-differences-and...
      - zepto 5y ago
        A proven fact that will be denied in most social justice conversations.
  - zeku 5y ago
    Your comment is the kind of comment we have to stop if we are going to actually be able to push mens rights issues. You're using divisive language with your second sentence and poison pilling the entire argument by attacking feminists. This doesn't have to be a feminist vs whatever war, it needs to be a conversation around male issues and we need everyone at the table to make things better.
    - groby_b 5y ago
      Speaking as a feminist - spot on. Feminism isn't about just swapping gender roles and just giving power to women. (As much as Sheryl Sandberg seems to believe it is) Which means that yes, the incarceration rates are (or should be, it's not like there's a feminist cabal I speak for;) concerning for feminists Not in the sense that we should simply incarcerate not women, but in the sense that we should desperately look for the systemic issues that result in this outcome. There's a good chance that a strong gender binary and an idea that it's somehow "men vs women" actively contributes. (E.g. because we stereotypically assign more social behavior to girls, and reward/excuse antisocial behavior in boys) Trying to frame this as an either/or debate is directly detrimental to ever achieving equitable outcomes.
      - mbrodersen 5y ago
        Males are biologically more aggressive that females. Pick any random male and female and there is a 60% chance that the male will be more aggressive than the female. You can study this and speculate as much as you want but you are wasting your time. Last time I looked males can’t give birth to children but females can. Is that also a cultural bias that we can somehow change to be more “even”? Good luck with that.
      - mpweiher 5y ago
        > systemic issues [causing higher incarceration rates] Anti-male bias in the justice system, which has been shown to be around 6x higher than the anti-black bias in the justice system. > reward/excuse antisocial behavior in boys We do not. Society strongly discourages not just anti-social behavior in boys, it nowadays discourage a LOT of boy behavior that isn't actually anti-social. Boys are seen as defective girls. And of course the education system hugely discriminates against boys. Unabashedly so. > Feminism isn't about just swapping gender roles and just giving power to women. That used to be true. It no longer is.
  - worker767424 5y ago
    My theory is that nature runs experiments with males to varying degrees depending on species, mostly in mammals. The continuation of the species only needs men to provide sperm, so the species can afford for unfit males to not have offspring. Females have a more important role, so you should optimize for consistency and reliability.
- YinglingLight 5y ago
  The importance of the Agreeableness trait need be stressed in every conversation about gender and career. Men are an entire standard deviation lower in Agreeableness than women. Being low in Agreeableness is the most common trait among CEOs and the prison population.
- tristor 5y ago
  This is likely a factor, the other factor that tends to account for these differences in fields where individual performance directly determines outcomes is that men have a wider bell curve than women do, although there is significant overlap for individual performance on pretty much every facet, men have more outliers at both the best end and worst end of the curve. This is true against nearly every facet of human performance, the variance is just higher. Higher variance combined with survivorship bias means that the top-most performers in fields that are driven almost entirely by individual performance (athletics, independent artists, authors) are dominated by men at the top, even though the vast majority of men, even those with interest in that field, would fail or be average.
- benibela 5y ago
  That risk can backfire. My parents were independent artists, but did not understand marketing. Now we have hundreds of artworks and no money.
laurent92 5y ago
Men tend to work themselves to death in much higher frequency than women. Women benefit from social fabric when they are at the bottom, even homeless women are housed (at unfixed address) while men really are on the street. I’m of the impression that we can’t reduce gaps without introducing the threat of social declassment of women when they fail.
- groby_b 5y ago
  Did it occur to you that a better alternative is to provide a safety net for both men and women, instead of taking the response "if i can't have it, you can't either"? Engaging in a race to the bottom, ensuring everybody is equally bad off, is maybe not the best strategy to ensure equal treatment. (yes, it works. It's just not very productive)
  - laurent92 5y ago
    Yes. What if neither is possible? - People do not want to provide this safety net for men, - People psychologically resist to remove it from women. Equality is not possible.
    - groby_b 5y ago
      "do not want" isn't "isn't possible". It takes work to effect that change, but it isn't impossible. As for the second statement: Removing a safety net from somebody else for equality's sake is the equivalent of a three year old smashing their toy so their brother can't play with it either. Yep, equal outcome is guaranteed now, but there's a more adult way to handle it.

twoslide 5y ago

Education is completely the same: compare teachers to principals or education professors (and within universities, assistant to full professors)

lucaspm98 5y ago

One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited potential path as an independent artist. A small fraction of independent artists become rich and famous, or even have a sustainable career, but you'll hear about the few that actually make it. In this scenario there may be more male success stories, but there will be an even greater number of failures. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/

endymi0n 5y ago
Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.
- sundvor 5y ago
  Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.
  - vanderZwan 5y ago
    Claiming that feminism does not talk about these issues is at best a sign of naivety about feminism and at worst being disingenuous. One may disagree with their conclusion that the origin of these problem also has to do with patriarchy, but to claim that these forms of suffering that disproportionately affect men are ignored by feminists is false.
    - at_a_remove 5y ago
      Oh, usually when one corners them in a debate they will grudgingly mumble something about the draft, but find me a spontaneous protest that the draft only inducts men, or about circumcision! They can be badgered into it but they have no actual vigor for it. I did find the various -- when the idea that the draft would apply in the US to women -- responses of "This isn't the kind of equality I wanted" very amusing in a bitterly cynical way.
      - groby_b 5y ago
        The draft is very low on most people's protest agenda because it's a coercive thing. Very few people will argue for more coercion, and especially not towards violence. Meanwhile, women have fought long and hard to be accepted as equals in the (voluntary) military. And you will find many supporters if instead the selective service, you'd support e.g a year of mandatory social service. You'll also find support to abandon the draft. (it's a highly unnecessary measure in the face of a professional military). You might even find support to have an egalitarian draft if we move further away from a professional military and instead institute mandatory military service. But "here's a really bad idea that disproportionality affects a specific group, we should double down to affect more groups negatively" just isn't a proposition appealing to many people - male or female.
        zepto 5y ago
        > The draft is very low on most people's protest agenda because it's a coercive thing. Very few people will argue for more coercion, and especially not towards violence. But this is pretty much the same reason that we don’t see outcry about the lack of women working on garbage trucks: it’s not a desirable thing.
- JPKab 5y ago
  Nobody looks at the imbalance in incarceration rates and assumes that police and the justice system are systemically sexist against men, but they certainly draw that conclusion along racial lines based on the same outcome.
  - ryanlol 5y ago
    Funnily enough this has been extensively studied, the systemic sexism against men in the justice system is a proven fact. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencing_disparity https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337844261_Sentencing_Gender_Investigating_the_Presence_of_Gender_Disparities_in_Crown_Court_Sentences https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337844261_Sentencin... https://crimsoc.hull.ac.uk/2020/06/18/gender-differences-and-sentencing/ https://crimsoc.hull.ac.uk/2020/06/18/gender-differences-and...
    - zepto 5y ago
      A proven fact that will be denied in most social justice conversations.
- zeku 5y ago
  Your comment is the kind of comment we have to stop if we are going to actually be able to push mens rights issues. You're using divisive language with your second sentence and poison pilling the entire argument by attacking feminists. This doesn't have to be a feminist vs whatever war, it needs to be a conversation around male issues and we need everyone at the table to make things better.
  - groby_b 5y ago
    Speaking as a feminist - spot on. Feminism isn't about just swapping gender roles and just giving power to women. (As much as Sheryl Sandberg seems to believe it is) Which means that yes, the incarceration rates are (or should be, it's not like there's a feminist cabal I speak for;) concerning for feminists Not in the sense that we should simply incarcerate not women, but in the sense that we should desperately look for the systemic issues that result in this outcome. There's a good chance that a strong gender binary and an idea that it's somehow "men vs women" actively contributes. (E.g. because we stereotypically assign more social behavior to girls, and reward/excuse antisocial behavior in boys) Trying to frame this as an either/or debate is directly detrimental to ever achieving equitable outcomes.
    - mbrodersen 5y ago
      Males are biologically more aggressive that females. Pick any random male and female and there is a 60% chance that the male will be more aggressive than the female. You can study this and speculate as much as you want but you are wasting your time. Last time I looked males can’t give birth to children but females can. Is that also a cultural bias that we can somehow change to be more “even”? Good luck with that.
    - mpweiher 5y ago
      > systemic issues [causing higher incarceration rates] Anti-male bias in the justice system, which has been shown to be around 6x higher than the anti-black bias in the justice system. > reward/excuse antisocial behavior in boys We do not. Society strongly discourages not just anti-social behavior in boys, it nowadays discourage a LOT of boy behavior that isn't actually anti-social. Boys are seen as defective girls. And of course the education system hugely discriminates against boys. Unabashedly so. > Feminism isn't about just swapping gender roles and just giving power to women. That used to be true. It no longer is.
- worker767424 5y ago
  My theory is that nature runs experiments with males to varying degrees depending on species, mostly in mammals. The continuation of the species only needs men to provide sperm, so the species can afford for unfit males to not have offspring. Females have a more important role, so you should optimize for consistency and reliability.
YinglingLight 5y ago
The importance of the Agreeableness trait need be stressed in every conversation about gender and career. Men are an entire standard deviation lower in Agreeableness than women. Being low in Agreeableness is the most common trait among CEOs and the prison population.
tristor 5y ago
This is likely a factor, the other factor that tends to account for these differences in fields where individual performance directly determines outcomes is that men have a wider bell curve than women do, although there is significant overlap for individual performance on pretty much every facet, men have more outliers at both the best end and worst end of the curve. This is true against nearly every facet of human performance, the variance is just higher. Higher variance combined with survivorship bias means that the top-most performers in fields that are driven almost entirely by individual performance (athletics, independent artists, authors) are dominated by men at the top, even though the vast majority of men, even those with interest in that field, would fail or be average.
benibela 5y ago
That risk can backfire. My parents were independent artists, but did not understand marketing. Now we have hundreds of artworks and no money.

laurent92 5y ago

Men tend to work themselves to death in much higher frequency than women. Women benefit from social fabric when they are at the bottom, even homeless women are housed (at unfixed address) while men really are on the street. I’m of the impression that we can’t reduce gaps without introducing the threat of social declassment of women when they fail.

groby_b 5y ago
Did it occur to you that a better alternative is to provide a safety net for both men and women, instead of taking the response "if i can't have it, you can't either"? Engaging in a race to the bottom, ensuring everybody is equally bad off, is maybe not the best strategy to ensure equal treatment. (yes, it works. It's just not very productive)
- laurent92 5y ago
  Yes. What if neither is possible? - People do not want to provide this safety net for men, - People psychologically resist to remove it from women. Equality is not possible.
  - groby_b 5y ago
    "do not want" isn't "isn't possible". It takes work to effect that change, but it isn't impossible. As for the second statement: Removing a safety net from somebody else for equality's sake is the equivalent of a three year old smashing their toy so their brother can't play with it either. Yep, equal outcome is guaranteed now, but there's a more adult way to handle it.