6 ms·

"Anti" racists are professional victims. Don't engage with them. They will always find a way to twist a disagreement going against their favor into an oppressio

"Anti" racists are professional victims. Don't engage with them. They will always find a way to twist a disagreement going against their favor into an oppression narrative.

secondaryacct 5y ago
Yeah in France where I was born, which is no perfect by any means of course, we tend to call the american obsession with racial segmentation "racialism" and consider it just as bad as racism. Like racism is to grade races when racialism is to accept humanity can be segmented is such races, which we strongly deny as a nation, or so I was raised to believe (but again no lessons to give, we have issues in France)
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  [flagged]
  - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
    > From what I've read, the racism in France is quite bad Links
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Clubs-accused-of-racism-at-door https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Clubs-accused-of-rac... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/sports/psg-racial-profiling.amp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/sports/psg-racial-profili... https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.39/ https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.39/
      - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
        Several isolated incidents does not make a larger problem
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        So you want me to provide statistical evidence of a broader problem in a country where it is illegal to collect any statistics around race? https://www.newsweek.com/french-activists-39-percent-paris-temp-agencies-agreed-weed-out-non-white-workers-1637191 https://www.newsweek.com/french-activists-39-percent-paris-t... 39% of Parisian hiring agencies agreeing to filter out non-white job applicants: You would never get anywhere near that number in an urban US core.
        NikolaeVarius 5y ago
        > So you want me to provide statistical evidence of a broader problem in a country where it is illegal to collect any statistics around race? Yes? Since apparently you feel perfectly comfortable with a link trying to prove this very fact, but lets see the claims of the article you linked. > called 69 temporary employment agencies in the Paris area posing as employees from a construction firm. Already an extremely small sample > The French government said it would summon the companies in question. Audited > It said 55 percent of the branch offices it contacted refused requests to discriminate. Okay > Although limited in scope to a small number of agencies, the findings highlight what anti-racism campaigners say is a wider problem of discrimination in some French workplaces. A claim of wider effects from a noted small sample
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        variance = p*q/n, gives an estimate of ~0.3% which puts >95% probability of the the true proportion of racist french temp agencies >25%. It's more than large enough of a sample size to put a tight confidence interval around the proportion. Again, as I've said - you would never get anything remotely like this in the urban core of the US.
  - emsy 5y ago
    I‘m from Germany, so I’m close to France but still have an outside perspective and your comment is ridiculous.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Based on? Nobody with as close of ties to white supremacy has ever gotten as near to the presidency in the US as Marine Lepen. US nightclubs do not routinely filter based on race, unlike a sizeable percentage of Paris nightclubs from past investigative reporting. Is it possible that maybe you just don't notice the brunt of it because there are fewer people of African descent in both of these countries?
      - furgooswft13 5y ago
        [flagged]
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        My accusations against Le Pen are equally as absurd as some other accusations that you brought up that I never made?
        furgooswft13 5y ago
        Yes.
      - twofornone 5y ago
        Maybe people like LePen are growing in popularity because people like you absolutely refuse to acknowledge the social, cultural, and financial costs of importing millions of, as you put it, "brown people"? Maybe these people are tired of being dehumanized as nazis for attempting to voice legitimate grievances?
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        [flagged]
- msla 5y ago
  > Yeah in France where I was born, which is no perfect by any means of course, we tend to call the american obsession with racial segmentation "racialism" and consider it just as bad as racism. This is precisely what a racist would believe, and this precise ideology gives perfect cover to racism.
greenail 5y ago
I'll admit this is a pessimistic take but it seems to be something that is happening throughout our society. The goal of something like this is to center race to gain power. The first step in the playbook for entrenching a woke ideology into a bureaucracy is to demand racial data/reporting. "hey look, this is an obvious problem... just look at the data". The next step is to demand a full diversity initiative. Next is hiring diversity inclusion and equity bureaucrats be installed. Once you have your own bureaucrats installed "inclusion" is used to promote fear and stifle speech or any descent. Now that no one can disagree or challenge the bureaucracy you can grow it and force it into the other bureaucratic functions. As an journalism specific example: this is exactly what played out at The New York Times This seems to be a very effective political strategy to gain power. It does seem to work. The question is how much does our society benefit?
- secondaryacct 5y ago
  I think I disagree a little bit. You're right to say this would be abusive, but the obvious right thing to do is not to do quota on color pigment (why would a brazilian descendent of slave be equaled to a nigerian, or an american Irish the same as a south african descendent of colons, they're obviously all so different the color is irrelevant) but maybe really ensure no such selection is applied so I get why they re so stuck on doing stats to find a bias. I m just sad Ill always be suspicious since I fit their whiteness definition each time I take a hiring decision... gladly I can be xenophobic and hire only multicolor french people in China hehehe and create diverse homogeneity ...
kleene_op 5y ago
Yes. I'm convinced the most racist people are those who can't stop talking about race, and that would include a fair amount of self-proclaimed and vocal "anti-racists".
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  This seems extremely premature given the massive disparities that still exist today racially. The average wealth of a black family in Boston is $8 whereas the average wealth of a white family is about $200,000. How do we talk about these disparities if we throw away the language to talk about race? Or is your argument that these disparities are innate? Or that they are not at all due to the legacy of explicitly race based discrimination in the US (the last school desegregated due to Brown v. Board was in 1998)? If you're not making either of those arguments, it seems kinda obvious why discussing race is still necessary today to me, not sure what you are missing.
  - rajin444 5y ago
    What’s the correct wealth for white and black families? If you say “I don’t know, but it needs to be closer” that’s just in group preference - which is fine, but don’t present that statistic as evidence of anything but a disparity. You need to prove (while accounting for all confounds) that this gap is a result of x.
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      Affirmative Action and the Black Experience in America (October 01, 2009) https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/human_rights_vol36_2009/fall2009/affirmative_action_and_the_black_experience_in_america/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      "accounting for all confounds" is a moving standard because you can always claim an additional confounding factor. I'd love if you would be explicit about what confounding factors you are discussing? I have a guess, but I'd want to hear it. It doesn't take a genius to recognize that intergenerational wealth will have large disparities as a result of vastly different starting points in wealth (yes, due to slavery), jim crow legal constructs, as well as the ongoing fact that there is large ongoing (and well-studied) discrimination against black people in job and real estate markets, at minimum.
hagbard_c 5y ago
"Anti" racists are racists, leading to the last few years seeing an enormous increase in the number of explicit racists in the public discourse. Their methods are very similar to those of the groups they claim to shun while their numbers are far higher. They have also managed to achieve positions of power from where to express their explicit racism and have been doing so at an increasing pace because they don't get any real blowback. I can only assume this to be caused by the fact that this is such a recent and brazen phenomenon that people are just stunned into silence, not willing to believe that the public discourse has suddenly been set back a century.
dang 5y ago
Please do not take HN threads further into generic ideological flamewar. It's just what we don't want here; it's extremely repetitive and almost always turns nasty—probably as a way of compensating for the lack of any interesting new information. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29277764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29277764.

"Anti" racists are professional victims. Don't engage with them. They will always find a way to twist a disagreement going against their favor into an oppression narrative.

secondaryacct 5y ago

Yeah in France where I was born, which is no perfect by any means of course, we tend to call the american obsession with racial segmentation "racialism" and consider it just as bad as racism. Like racism is to grade races when racialism is to accept humanity can be segmented is such races, which we strongly deny as a nation, or so I was raised to believe (but again no lessons to give, we have issues in France)

whimsicalism 5y ago
[flagged]
- NikolaeVarius 5y ago
  > From what I've read, the racism in France is quite bad Links
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Clubs-accused-of-racism-at-door https://www.connexionfrance.com/Archive/Clubs-accused-of-rac... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/sports/psg-racial-profiling.amp.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/08/sports/psg-racial-profili... https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.39/ https://www.luminosoa.org/site/books/m/10.1525/luminos.39/
    - NikolaeVarius 5y ago
      Several isolated incidents does not make a larger problem
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        So you want me to provide statistical evidence of a broader problem in a country where it is illegal to collect any statistics around race? https://www.newsweek.com/french-activists-39-percent-paris-temp-agencies-agreed-weed-out-non-white-workers-1637191 https://www.newsweek.com/french-activists-39-percent-paris-t... 39% of Parisian hiring agencies agreeing to filter out non-white job applicants: You would never get anywhere near that number in an urban US core.
        NikolaeVarius 5y ago
        > So you want me to provide statistical evidence of a broader problem in a country where it is illegal to collect any statistics around race? Yes? Since apparently you feel perfectly comfortable with a link trying to prove this very fact, but lets see the claims of the article you linked. > called 69 temporary employment agencies in the Paris area posing as employees from a construction firm. Already an extremely small sample > The French government said it would summon the companies in question. Audited > It said 55 percent of the branch offices it contacted refused requests to discriminate. Okay > Although limited in scope to a small number of agencies, the findings highlight what anti-racism campaigners say is a wider problem of discrimination in some French workplaces. A claim of wider effects from a noted small sample
        whimsicalism 5y ago
        variance = p*q/n, gives an estimate of ~0.3% which puts >95% probability of the the true proportion of racist french temp agencies >25%. It's more than large enough of a sample size to put a tight confidence interval around the proportion. Again, as I've said - you would never get anything remotely like this in the urban core of the US.
- emsy 5y ago
  I‘m from Germany, so I’m close to France but still have an outside perspective and your comment is ridiculous.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Based on? Nobody with as close of ties to white supremacy has ever gotten as near to the presidency in the US as Marine Lepen. US nightclubs do not routinely filter based on race, unlike a sizeable percentage of Paris nightclubs from past investigative reporting. Is it possible that maybe you just don't notice the brunt of it because there are fewer people of African descent in both of these countries?
    - furgooswft13 5y ago
      [flagged]
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        My accusations against Le Pen are equally as absurd as some other accusations that you brought up that I never made?
        furgooswft13 5y ago
        Yes.
    - twofornone 5y ago
      Maybe people like LePen are growing in popularity because people like you absolutely refuse to acknowledge the social, cultural, and financial costs of importing millions of, as you put it, "brown people"? Maybe these people are tired of being dehumanized as nazis for attempting to voice legitimate grievances?
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        [flagged]
msla 5y ago
> Yeah in France where I was born, which is no perfect by any means of course, we tend to call the american obsession with racial segmentation "racialism" and consider it just as bad as racism. This is precisely what a racist would believe, and this precise ideology gives perfect cover to racism.

greenail 5y ago

I'll admit this is a pessimistic take but it seems to be something that is happening throughout our society. The goal of something like this is to center race to gain power. The first step in the playbook for entrenching a woke ideology into a bureaucracy is to demand racial data/reporting. "hey look, this is an obvious problem... just look at the data". The next step is to demand a full diversity initiative. Next is hiring diversity inclusion and equity bureaucrats be installed. Once you have your own bureaucrats installed "inclusion" is used to promote fear and stifle speech or any descent. Now that no one can disagree or challenge the bureaucracy you can grow it and force it into the other bureaucratic functions. As an journalism specific example: this is exactly what played out at The New York Times This seems to be a very effective political strategy to gain power. It does seem to work. The question is how much does our society benefit?

secondaryacct 5y ago
I think I disagree a little bit. You're right to say this would be abusive, but the obvious right thing to do is not to do quota on color pigment (why would a brazilian descendent of slave be equaled to a nigerian, or an american Irish the same as a south african descendent of colons, they're obviously all so different the color is irrelevant) but maybe really ensure no such selection is applied so I get why they re so stuck on doing stats to find a bias. I m just sad Ill always be suspicious since I fit their whiteness definition each time I take a hiring decision... gladly I can be xenophobic and hire only multicolor french people in China hehehe and create diverse homogeneity ...

kleene_op 5y ago

Yes. I'm convinced the most racist people are those who can't stop talking about race, and that would include a fair amount of self-proclaimed and vocal "anti-racists".

whimsicalism 5y ago
This seems extremely premature given the massive disparities that still exist today racially. The average wealth of a black family in Boston is $8 whereas the average wealth of a white family is about $200,000. How do we talk about these disparities if we throw away the language to talk about race? Or is your argument that these disparities are innate? Or that they are not at all due to the legacy of explicitly race based discrimination in the US (the last school desegregated due to Brown v. Board was in 1998)? If you're not making either of those arguments, it seems kinda obvious why discussing race is still necessary today to me, not sure what you are missing.
- rajin444 5y ago
  What’s the correct wealth for white and black families? If you say “I don’t know, but it needs to be closer” that’s just in group preference - which is fine, but don’t present that statistic as evidence of anything but a disparity. You need to prove (while accounting for all confounds) that this gap is a result of x.
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    Affirmative Action and the Black Experience in America (October 01, 2009) https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/human_rights_vol36_2009/fall2009/affirmative_action_and_the_black_experience_in_america/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    "accounting for all confounds" is a moving standard because you can always claim an additional confounding factor. I'd love if you would be explicit about what confounding factors you are discussing? I have a guess, but I'd want to hear it. It doesn't take a genius to recognize that intergenerational wealth will have large disparities as a result of vastly different starting points in wealth (yes, due to slavery), jim crow legal constructs, as well as the ongoing fact that there is large ongoing (and well-studied) discrimination against black people in job and real estate markets, at minimum.

hagbard_c 5y ago

"Anti" racists are racists, leading to the last few years seeing an enormous increase in the number of explicit racists in the public discourse. Their methods are very similar to those of the groups they claim to shun while their numbers are far higher. They have also managed to achieve positions of power from where to express their explicit racism and have been doing so at an increasing pace because they don't get any real blowback. I can only assume this to be caused by the fact that this is such a recent and brazen phenomenon that people are just stunned into silence, not willing to believe that the public discourse has suddenly been set back a century.

dang 5y ago

Please do not take HN threads further into generic ideological flamewar. It's just what we don't want here; it's extremely repetitive and almost always turns nasty—probably as a way of compensating for the lack of any interesting new information. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29277764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29277764.