6 ms·

“that, at least in Sweden and the occupations we study, hiring discrimination in entry level jobs is primarily a problem for men in female-dominated occupations

“that, at least in Sweden and the occupations we study, hiring discrimination in entry level jobs is primarily a problem for men in female-dominated occupations,” That's interesting. I work in a female-dominated occupation (libraries), but, it's only female dominated at the lower levels. Historically, at least, directors/managers and the upper level folks tended to be men, and those are of course the only jobs that pay very well. So while there's waaay more female librarians, there's way more male library directors. I think that's been slowly changing recently. I don't see that they look at libraries in this study, nor do they mention managers.

bopbeepboop 5y ago
Library directors would look like the entry-level workforce 20-30 years ago, right? One of the major faults in these analyses is to not account for cohorts — and so they discriminate against men in the here and now (fresh hires) to “balance” historic issues that haven’t aged out yet. That purposeful (and misguided) bigotry is the basis of a lot of modern movements, like “anti-racism”.
- assbuttbuttass 5y ago
  For way more than 30 years women have dominated men in the librarian profession https://blog.oup.com/2011/06/librarian-census/ https://blog.oup.com/2011/06/librarian-census/
- harpersealtako 5y ago
  There are at least a few spheres where purposeful discrimination is explicitly the intended goal, because advocates truly believe the solution will not be solved unless such things happen. The example of this is affirmative action. If you could wave a magic wand that perfectly equalized yearly pay between all races of people in the US, you would still see wealth disparities persist for many years (possibly generations, and possibly not get any better), because wealth and financial literacy are passed down through families and interracial marriage is somewhat uncommon. Affirmative action (explicit discrimination on the basis of race) deliberately and purposefully seeks to counterbalance against this effect. Now, I think that that issue is better solved by higher inheritance taxes, mandatory personal finance classes in schools, and more equitable school funding, but the point is that it's not always a lack of understanding of age cohorts that drives such policies. It's possible to understand the real logic behind such policies and still disagree with them.
vanderZwan 5y ago
The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.
- twoslide 5y ago
  Education is completely the same: compare teachers to principals or education professors (and within universities, assistant to full professors)
- lucaspm98 5y ago
  One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited potential path as an independent artist. A small fraction of independent artists become rich and famous, or even have a sustainable career, but you'll hear about the few that actually make it. In this scenario there may be more male success stories, but there will be an even greater number of failures. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/
  - endymi0n 5y ago
    Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.
    - sundvor 5y ago
      Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.
thendrill 5y ago
Are you saying that men tend to take more leadership responsibilities?
- dagw 5y ago
  Or at least men tend to _be given_ more leadership responsibilities.
  - daenz 5y ago
    I do get your point, but leadership is sometimes unique in that it requires an individual to take the role.
    - dagw 5y ago
      You can take a leadership role, but you cannot take a leadership position. That has to be given to you.
      - User23 5y ago
        That’s a strange thing to say at a domain that’s all about founders, who are exactly taking leadership positions.
      - daenz 5y ago
        True, but from my experience, taking the role can lead to a position because it demonstrates qualities in a leader.
      - hn8788 5y ago
        I don't think I've ever seen a well functioning organization that gives a leadership position to someone who hasn't already demonstrated leadership qualities by proactively taking on a leadership role.
      - lillecarl 5y ago
        I don't think you're right. It has to be negotiated about, either I get this role or you will have to find a replacement for me.
belorn 5y ago
The study in the article looked at hiring discrimination. The study focused on the tested and established method of correspondence testing to measure active discrimination, in this case response rates to job applications. Gender segregation, ie what fields are dominated by which gender, is related but quite different. For Swedish numbers I can strongly recommend the primary source (https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbetsmarknad/sysselsattning-forvarvsarbete-och-arbetstider/yrkesregistret-med-yrkesstatistik/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbe...), collected by the Swedish tax agency and published by the government agency for statistics. The only major drawback is that it is a lot of information and its hard to locate the exact thing (Just choosing the right database interfaces can be hard). That said, in this case, we can mostly identify the correct numbers. Librarian is a female dominated professions with a ratio of 2:1 (found through the database interface that lists profession and gender), with a similar gender ratio in favor of women for manager levels in the government sector (https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbetsmarknad/sysselsattning-forvarvsarbete-och-arbetstider/yrkesregistret-med-yrkesstatistik/pong/tabell-och-diagram/andel-kvinnor-och-man-i-chefspositioner/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbe...). It should be noted that Sweden has a very high level of gender segregation, and that segregation occurs based on multiple attributes.
- grp000 5y ago
  I wonder how much of that is a factor of era-started for the directorial positions. Directors have usually accrued decades of experience in the industry, and thus started their careers earlier when culture was more sexist. I think male-dominated senior positions are going to be phased out much more slowly as a less homogeneous workforce matures.

bopbeepboop 5y ago

Library directors would look like the entry-level workforce 20-30 years ago, right? One of the major faults in these analyses is to not account for cohorts — and so they discriminate against men in the here and now (fresh hires) to “balance” historic issues that haven’t aged out yet. That purposeful (and misguided) bigotry is the basis of a lot of modern movements, like “anti-racism”.

assbuttbuttass 5y ago
For way more than 30 years women have dominated men in the librarian profession https://blog.oup.com/2011/06/librarian-census/ https://blog.oup.com/2011/06/librarian-census/
harpersealtako 5y ago
There are at least a few spheres where purposeful discrimination is explicitly the intended goal, because advocates truly believe the solution will not be solved unless such things happen. The example of this is affirmative action. If you could wave a magic wand that perfectly equalized yearly pay between all races of people in the US, you would still see wealth disparities persist for many years (possibly generations, and possibly not get any better), because wealth and financial literacy are passed down through families and interracial marriage is somewhat uncommon. Affirmative action (explicit discrimination on the basis of race) deliberately and purposefully seeks to counterbalance against this effect. Now, I think that that issue is better solved by higher inheritance taxes, mandatory personal finance classes in schools, and more equitable school funding, but the point is that it's not always a lack of understanding of age cohorts that drives such policies. It's possible to understand the real logic behind such policies and still disagree with them.

vanderZwan 5y ago

The same is true for the art world. Female dominated in every art school I know, male dominated at the well-paying end of the success spectrum. And I can safely say that I have not ever noticed any discrimination against male artists while studying it. Quite the contrary.

twoslide 5y ago
Education is completely the same: compare teachers to principals or education professors (and within universities, assistant to full professors)
lucaspm98 5y ago
One factor that may be contributing to this, especially in the art world, is survivorship bias driven by higher male risk tolerances. Men have much more boom or bust outcomes in their lives and careers due to lower risk aversion. What this could look like in the art world is a lower tendency than women towards a stable yet income-capped career like art teacher, and a higher tendency towards a risky yet unlimited potential path as an independent artist. A small fraction of independent artists become rich and famous, or even have a sustainable career, but you'll hear about the few that actually make it. In this scenario there may be more male success stories, but there will be an even greater number of failures. Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2741240/
- endymi0n 5y ago
  Note the hypothesis about risk being a predominantly male trait is also consistent at the other end with men making up 90%+ of prison population in pretty much any form of government or society. I haven't heard many feminists argue for a female quota in prisons yet.
  - sundvor 5y ago
    Or workplace deaths, 10:1, or suicides 3.5:1 or higher.

thendrill 5y ago

Are you saying that men tend to take more leadership responsibilities?

dagw 5y ago
Or at least men tend to _be given_ more leadership responsibilities.
- daenz 5y ago
  I do get your point, but leadership is sometimes unique in that it requires an individual to take the role.
  - dagw 5y ago
    You can take a leadership role, but you cannot take a leadership position. That has to be given to you.
    - User23 5y ago
      That’s a strange thing to say at a domain that’s all about founders, who are exactly taking leadership positions.
    - daenz 5y ago
      True, but from my experience, taking the role can lead to a position because it demonstrates qualities in a leader.
    - hn8788 5y ago
      I don't think I've ever seen a well functioning organization that gives a leadership position to someone who hasn't already demonstrated leadership qualities by proactively taking on a leadership role.
    - lillecarl 5y ago
      I don't think you're right. It has to be negotiated about, either I get this role or you will have to find a replacement for me.

belorn 5y ago

The study in the article looked at hiring discrimination. The study focused on the tested and established method of correspondence testing to measure active discrimination, in this case response rates to job applications. Gender segregation, ie what fields are dominated by which gender, is related but quite different. For Swedish numbers I can strongly recommend the primary source (https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbetsmarknad/sysselsattning-forvarvsarbete-och-arbetstider/yrkesregistret-med-yrkesstatistik/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbe...), collected by the Swedish tax agency and published by the government agency for statistics. The only major drawback is that it is a lot of information and its hard to locate the exact thing (Just choosing the right database interfaces can be hard). That said, in this case, we can mostly identify the correct numbers. Librarian is a female dominated professions with a ratio of 2:1 (found through the database interface that lists profession and gender), with a similar gender ratio in favor of women for manager levels in the government sector (https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbetsmarknad/sysselsattning-forvarvsarbete-och-arbetstider/yrkesregistret-med-yrkesstatistik/pong/tabell-och-diagram/andel-kvinnor-och-man-i-chefspositioner/ https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/statistik-efter-amne/arbe...). It should be noted that Sweden has a very high level of gender segregation, and that segregation occurs based on multiple attributes.

grp000 5y ago
I wonder how much of that is a factor of era-started for the directorial positions. Directors have usually accrued decades of experience in the industry, and thus started their careers earlier when culture was more sexist. I think male-dominated senior positions are going to be phased out much more slowly as a less homogeneous workforce matures.