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It's hard to run a business ethically so that gives you the right to run it unethically? Business convenience should rank far lower than personal convenience in

by tpxl 5y ago

It's hard to run a business ethically so that gives you the right to run it unethically? Business convenience should rank far lower than personal convenience in the world. I will _never_ provide a credit card for a free trial because some companies will charge you at the end of the trial and I don't have time to figure out whether you're one of those. I will _never_ provide my phone number for "security reasons" because a load of companies used that excuse to get the phone number then used it for marketing or for correlating it with other personal data. I say that as a failed SaaS co-founder. Being ethical was no part of the reason the SaaS failed.

jwr 5y ago
> It's hard to run a business ethically so that gives you the right to run it unethically? The word "ethically" implies a strong moral judgment. We can discuss ethics of course. For example, why would you think that charging at the end of a free trial is a problem, if this is clearly stated when signing up, notification E-mails are sent before any charge happens, and refunds are provided with no questions asked when necessary? What exactly is "unethical" here? But my point was that many of these decisions are made not because of evil approach to making more money, but because of very practical and down-to-earth things. For example, requiring credit card information before a free trial reduces your signups considerably, leaving only the most serious potential customers. That lessens your support and onboarding load, because you do not spend time supporting non-customers that would not pay you anyway. Obviously this is not a clear-cut decision, but I'm trying to point out that the basis for making those decisions has nothing to do with morals, ethics or "dark patterns". That kind of "dark pattern" conspiracy thought implies a lack of understanding of how a SaaS operates. It's very naïve to think that a SaaS business would care about charging for the first month through "dark patterns". If you run a SaaS, you care about long-term customers, retention, LTV and MRR. New signups are often actually a loss over the first months. So grabbing someones $49 through a "dark pattern" makes no sense: it actually lowers your important metrics, and makes you lose money, because that customer will usually contact support.
- tpxl 5y ago
  > But my point was that many of these decisions are made not because of evil approach to making more money, but because of very practical and down-to-earth things. You make these decisions for these reasons, and others do it so they can charge me at the end of a free trial. I don't have time to figure which one of these companies you are. That being said, if I got redirected to a CC company website so they could verify my identity and give you a token, so you can prevent free trial abuse, I'd be down with that.

by tpxl 5y ago

jwr 5y ago

> It's hard to run a business ethically so that gives you the right to run it unethically? The word "ethically" implies a strong moral judgment. We can discuss ethics of course. For example, why would you think that charging at the end of a free trial is a problem, if this is clearly stated when signing up, notification E-mails are sent before any charge happens, and refunds are provided with no questions asked when necessary? What exactly is "unethical" here? But my point was that many of these decisions are made not because of evil approach to making more money, but because of very practical and down-to-earth things. For example, requiring credit card information before a free trial reduces your signups considerably, leaving only the most serious potential customers. That lessens your support and onboarding load, because you do not spend time supporting non-customers that would not pay you anyway. Obviously this is not a clear-cut decision, but I'm trying to point out that the basis for making those decisions has nothing to do with morals, ethics or "dark patterns". That kind of "dark pattern" conspiracy thought implies a lack of understanding of how a SaaS operates. It's very naïve to think that a SaaS business would care about charging for the first month through "dark patterns". If you run a SaaS, you care about long-term customers, retention, LTV and MRR. New signups are often actually a loss over the first months. So grabbing someones $49 through a "dark pattern" makes no sense: it actually lowers your important metrics, and makes you lose money, because that customer will usually contact support.

tpxl 5y ago
> But my point was that many of these decisions are made not because of evil approach to making more money, but because of very practical and down-to-earth things. You make these decisions for these reasons, and others do it so they can charge me at the end of a free trial. I don't have time to figure which one of these companies you are. That being said, if I got redirected to a CC company website so they could verify my identity and give you a token, so you can prevent free trial abuse, I'd be down with that.