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OK, let's imagine South Korea "shuts Google and Apple down" (kicks them out of the country, I guess, and then bans anybody from importing their products). Now

OK, let's imagine South Korea "shuts Google and Apple down" (kicks them out of the country, I guess, and then bans anybody from importing their products). Now what? Seems like they just don't have smart phones and torched a pretty productive part of their economy (i.e., producing Android phones), and it's not clear where independent app developers are supposed to be developing their stuff anymore.

oblio 5y ago
Or this could force phone companies to create alternative, more open forks of the supposedly Open Source Android. It's not like we don't know how to do this stuff, we just don't invest enough in it.
- izacus 5y ago
  South Korean company tried to do just that - they built an OS called "Tizen" which withered and died because without user-facing software, it was a horrible user experience and people were seriously annoyed that they couldn't use the software they actually care about. Instead, they went and bought Google/Apple devices instead. Another USA company tried to do that as well. They called their OS "Windows Phone" and it withered and died because a fractured support for software people care about doesn't make a useful device. A Chinese company tried to do that as well. They now again ship Google Services next to their own Huawei services in Europe because without software support, their smart devices weren't useful to users either.
  - oblio 5y ago
    You're almost there, but you didn't go all the way. South Korea is a small market. The US company is famous for mismanaging its mobile operating systems for more than 2 decades. The Chinese company didn't "try" to do that, it was forced to. But guess what, in China, where most external apps are banned, there's an entire, completely separate ecosystem. You do need a combination of skill and critical mass. I don't expect South Korea to achieve this, but for example if there's a bigger alliance of say, South Korea, the EU, etc., where they put resources into encouraging an OS based on open standards, that starts to look feasible. App developers will need support, but they can port their apps. Especially since this OS doesn't need to start from scratch, it can be based on AOSP. That's probably the biggest thing Google/Apple are afraid of this point, that a fully open/interoperable mobile OS is somehow enforced. They either have to open up their OSes to be in key markets or they're forced to let someone else create that OS.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      South Korea has its own Galapagos Island situation with apps thanks to efforts to foster them by the government — eg Google Maps is seriously crippled and you have to use Kakao Maps, they have their own local version of Uber, etc, etc
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    "without software support, their smart devices weren't useful to users either." Therefore, logically, Apple should be the one paying app developers 30% of their revenue. Witout them iPhone would be an overpriced paperweight.
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      The relationship is symbiotic. iPhones need your apps to stay relevant, and developers need access to the iPhone ecosystem to be able to reach anybody.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Sure, but Apple has the power, and money follows power.
    - dwaite 5y ago
      Apple pays developers 70% of their revenue. Thats where the developer revenue comes from.
      - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
        Unless developers get money from iPhone sales, this statemet has tenuous relationship with reality
  - Bobylonian 5y ago
    Where are you getting your information? Tizen OS is not dead. It is well alive and kicking and being improved and Samsung is slowly implementing that unified OS not only for their phones, but for other Samsung products. The main issue for any phone producer is that any OS that they do not own also Android comes at a price - there is no such thing as free OS. There are also plenty of other mobile phone OS, that are not compatible with every phone and that is the main issue why they are not widespread. Phone that I own is supported not only by Android(and Android forks), but also couple of other mobile phone OS. The trend is that in future there will be more choices for OS, that might satisfy those users, that are currently not happy about Android, but have no other choices at the moment. There are at least 10 other mobile OS choices - most of them are based on Linux, but current share of those is ~0,1% out of ~6 billion of phones. In total numbers that is only 6 million devices. 6 million device market is a significant number for any company, not to mention, that this number is only playground compared to 1000x larger world market of mobile phones.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  If it were so easy Chinese companies would have already done it, having both more resources and an obvious incentive.
  - oblio 5y ago
    They have done it. Do you know how the Chinese smartphone app market works?
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      As far as I'm aware almost everything is still Android, even if they're not using the Play Store.
      - oblio 5y ago
        Yeah, but Android is Open Source by design. All these governments don't have an issue with the code, they have issues with project governance.
        emodendroket 5y ago
        But they haven't gotten their own fork off the ground so they're still dependent on Google for continued updates.
        oblio 5y ago
        Yeah, but with enough of these "nudges", maybe it finally happens. The EU has already fined Google, South Korea is adding these new rules, I think even the US is thinking about some regulation, let's see what happens in a few years.
        emodendroket 5y ago
        Ultimately, my guess is that the military/China conflict angle prevails over antitrust when it comes to Google. But I could be wrong. Certainly China has cracked down on its side, which I didn't anticipate.
Bobylonian 5y ago
Samsung and Tizen OS(that comes with store) is already an alternative for South Korea. Though, so far Samsung has profited from cooperating with Android, as it gained unprecedented share for smartphone market. iPhone has branded itself as status symbol that people are rich and can pay and maintain lifestyle that includes ipHone - Androids, well - it is replacable and will be eventually.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  At the very least, if Samsung is compelled to exclusively make Tizen phones, I think they can pretty much kiss foreign sales good-bye. Though I guess they're in better shape than LG trying to license the OS from their chief competitor.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"Now what? Seems like they just don't have smart phones and torched a pretty productive part of their economy" So you are saying Google / Apple are above the law, capitalism is more important than democracy? Where does this end? They might as well start acting as mafia, resort to raketeering and break you legs if you don't show up for work.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying there is a reason we have a regulatory regime with all the safeguards you’re decrying instead of randomly axing companies.
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    You reasons seems to be that Apple and Google are holding us hostage. Is there any other reason i missed?
    - emodendroket 5y ago
      Sure, in the same sense the power plant "holds us hostage" so we don't respond to malfeasance by not having electricity anymore.

oblio 5y ago

Or this could force phone companies to create alternative, more open forks of the supposedly Open Source Android. It's not like we don't know how to do this stuff, we just don't invest enough in it.

izacus 5y ago
South Korean company tried to do just that - they built an OS called "Tizen" which withered and died because without user-facing software, it was a horrible user experience and people were seriously annoyed that they couldn't use the software they actually care about. Instead, they went and bought Google/Apple devices instead. Another USA company tried to do that as well. They called their OS "Windows Phone" and it withered and died because a fractured support for software people care about doesn't make a useful device. A Chinese company tried to do that as well. They now again ship Google Services next to their own Huawei services in Europe because without software support, their smart devices weren't useful to users either.
- oblio 5y ago
  You're almost there, but you didn't go all the way. South Korea is a small market. The US company is famous for mismanaging its mobile operating systems for more than 2 decades. The Chinese company didn't "try" to do that, it was forced to. But guess what, in China, where most external apps are banned, there's an entire, completely separate ecosystem. You do need a combination of skill and critical mass. I don't expect South Korea to achieve this, but for example if there's a bigger alliance of say, South Korea, the EU, etc., where they put resources into encouraging an OS based on open standards, that starts to look feasible. App developers will need support, but they can port their apps. Especially since this OS doesn't need to start from scratch, it can be based on AOSP. That's probably the biggest thing Google/Apple are afraid of this point, that a fully open/interoperable mobile OS is somehow enforced. They either have to open up their OSes to be in key markets or they're forced to let someone else create that OS.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    South Korea has its own Galapagos Island situation with apps thanks to efforts to foster them by the government — eg Google Maps is seriously crippled and you have to use Kakao Maps, they have their own local version of Uber, etc, etc
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  "without software support, their smart devices weren't useful to users either." Therefore, logically, Apple should be the one paying app developers 30% of their revenue. Witout them iPhone would be an overpriced paperweight.
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    The relationship is symbiotic. iPhones need your apps to stay relevant, and developers need access to the iPhone ecosystem to be able to reach anybody.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Sure, but Apple has the power, and money follows power.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    Apple pays developers 70% of their revenue. Thats where the developer revenue comes from.
    - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
      Unless developers get money from iPhone sales, this statemet has tenuous relationship with reality
- Bobylonian 5y ago
  Where are you getting your information? Tizen OS is not dead. It is well alive and kicking and being improved and Samsung is slowly implementing that unified OS not only for their phones, but for other Samsung products. The main issue for any phone producer is that any OS that they do not own also Android comes at a price - there is no such thing as free OS. There are also plenty of other mobile phone OS, that are not compatible with every phone and that is the main issue why they are not widespread. Phone that I own is supported not only by Android(and Android forks), but also couple of other mobile phone OS. The trend is that in future there will be more choices for OS, that might satisfy those users, that are currently not happy about Android, but have no other choices at the moment. There are at least 10 other mobile OS choices - most of them are based on Linux, but current share of those is ~0,1% out of ~6 billion of phones. In total numbers that is only 6 million devices. 6 million device market is a significant number for any company, not to mention, that this number is only playground compared to 1000x larger world market of mobile phones.
emodendroket 5y ago
If it were so easy Chinese companies would have already done it, having both more resources and an obvious incentive.
- oblio 5y ago
  They have done it. Do you know how the Chinese smartphone app market works?
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    As far as I'm aware almost everything is still Android, even if they're not using the Play Store.
    - oblio 5y ago
      Yeah, but Android is Open Source by design. All these governments don't have an issue with the code, they have issues with project governance.
      - emodendroket 5y ago
        But they haven't gotten their own fork off the ground so they're still dependent on Google for continued updates.
        oblio 5y ago
        Yeah, but with enough of these "nudges", maybe it finally happens. The EU has already fined Google, South Korea is adding these new rules, I think even the US is thinking about some regulation, let's see what happens in a few years.
        emodendroket 5y ago
        Ultimately, my guess is that the military/China conflict angle prevails over antitrust when it comes to Google. But I could be wrong. Certainly China has cracked down on its side, which I didn't anticipate.

Bobylonian 5y ago

Samsung and Tizen OS(that comes with store) is already an alternative for South Korea. Though, so far Samsung has profited from cooperating with Android, as it gained unprecedented share for smartphone market. iPhone has branded itself as status symbol that people are rich and can pay and maintain lifestyle that includes ipHone - Androids, well - it is replacable and will be eventually.

emodendroket 5y ago
At the very least, if Samsung is compelled to exclusively make Tizen phones, I think they can pretty much kiss foreign sales good-bye. Though I guess they're in better shape than LG trying to license the OS from their chief competitor.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"Now what? Seems like they just don't have smart phones and torched a pretty productive part of their economy" So you are saying Google / Apple are above the law, capitalism is more important than democracy? Where does this end? They might as well start acting as mafia, resort to raketeering and break you legs if you don't show up for work.

emodendroket 5y ago
No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying there is a reason we have a regulatory regime with all the safeguards you’re decrying instead of randomly axing companies.
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  You reasons seems to be that Apple and Google are holding us hostage. Is there any other reason i missed?
  - emodendroket 5y ago
    Sure, in the same sense the power plant "holds us hostage" so we don't respond to malfeasance by not having electricity anymore.