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On topic though, if they are so unreliable, why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner

On topic though, if they are so unreliable, why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-and-least-liked-car-brands-a1291429338/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisf... Maybe I just don't understand the American car consumer market, or may there is a difference in the magnitude of measurements. ---- Also, I hear people in Europe preferring the Shanghai made cars over the Fremont made one (for having better fit and finish), may Fremont is just not fit for purpose? The new Austin and Berlin Factories, plus the new mega-casting system, might finally give us some insight. Seeing the battery and chip supply issues, I feel Tesla has snagged themselves another 3-5 years of lax workmanship before the alternatives simply catch upto them. Tesla's true moat is charging infra, and that can't last long.

commoner 5y ago
Tesla isn't the only brand that has received an Excellent rating for owner satisfaction but a Poor rating for reliability from Consumer Reports surveys. Dyson also earned the same two ratings for several of its stick vacuums in 2019: https://www.consumerreports.org/stick-vacuums/dyson-stick-vacuums-lose-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues-a3791934667/ https://www.consumerreports.org/stick-vacuums/dyson-stick-va... Some brands just seem to command more loyalty from their customers than the quality of their products can justify.
- closetohome 5y ago
  Failure rate isn't the only metric that affects customer satisfaction. If the product works better than any of its competition, but has a 10% rate of complete failure (which is insanely high for a retail product), you're still going to have 90% customer satisfaction.
hulitu 5y ago
> On topic though, if they are so unreliable, why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? Because when you buy expensive toys and show them to your friends you cannot admit that they are crap ? It happens all the time.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Yeah, it's a reasonable explanation, the people who really gave their money for the cars are the converted/convinced/conned ones. And people hate to shatter their belief in their own sense of judgement. Note I say it's a reasonable explanation, although I don't want to assert how accurate it is in regards to Tesla owners - someone should do the actual research.
- ryzvonusef 5y ago
  But this not the grapevine; iirc they generate results from (if not anonymous then atleast not publicly shared) replies to Consumer Reports subscriber survey. So from the entire pool of CR subscriber base who agree to reply to their annual survey and who self-report to own Teslas, this group both overwhelmingly chooses to report significant number of car issues AND chooses to report great satisfaction? What is up with this group of people?
  - hn8788 5y ago
    I think it's because people who buy a Tesla are fans of Tesla, so the well known reliability issues aren't a problem to them. They aren't buying a Tesla for practical reasons like affordability and reliability, they're buying a Tesla because they want to own a Tesla. It's the same as people who buy poorly made expensive designer clothes and accessories.
    - SyzygistSix 5y ago
      Helping move away from petro-powered transportation is a huge incentive for a lot of people. And it's not like Teslas are terrible or have a worse driving experience than other cars. There is a reason that every single electric car made by anyone is sold far in advance, including non-Teslas where charging on road trips is still a sub par experience.
      - JeremyNT 5y ago
        > Helping move away from petro-powered transportation is a huge incentive for a lot of people. If somebody was serious about this as their primary motivator, they'd buy a much more reliable / affordable vehicle like the Bolt or Leaf.
martin8412 5y ago
Let's see how well Berlin is going to go when Elon finds out about German unions. German workers are not going to accept the slave level work conditions that are common in the US.
tzs 5y ago
> On topic though, if they are so unreliable, why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? Maybe for a lot of people reliability isn't a major concern? People who get a new car every few years even if the old one runs fine just need their car to last until then. People like me who stick with a car much longer [1] put reliability much higher on our requirements. [1] I'm driving a 2006 Honda CR-V that I bought new and hope to keep driving for another 15+ years, albeit at some point I plan to get an EV for my around town daily driving keeping the CR-V for when I need more cargo or longer distance. Just waiting on that for an EV that I can keep for 20+ years without it costing a fortune over that time in battery repair/replacement. I really want the next car I buy to be the last car I buy.
- DeathArrow 5y ago
  >Just waiting on that for an EV that I can keep for 20+ years without it costing a fortune over that time in battery repair/replacement. You will live a long life for sure. :)
  - tzs 5y ago
    Yeah...I may compromise and make that last car a PHEV. My normal daily driving is under the all electric range of most PHEVs, and since they have smaller batteries than full EVs battery repair/replacement should be cheaper. The plan would then be a PHEV sedan mostly used just on battery, the CR-V for when I need more cargo capacity, and either the CR-V or PHEV for those rare longer trips depending on how much stuff I need to carry. A plus for that approach is that since the PHEV would not be used much in ICE mode I hopefully would get a very long lifetime out of the ICE side of it. If I go for a PHEV SUV instead of a PHEV sedan, then I'm even covered if the CR-V dies before me. I have hope though that as EVs become more common battery repair/replacement will come down. In particular I'm hoping multiple manufacturers standardize on using the same cells in their batteries and make the individual cells replaceable so that battery repair becomes a standard thing you can have done at a typical independent car repair shop, rather than something you have to go to the dealer for and has to be done with parts from the car manufacturer.
dagw 5y ago
why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? Could be that the car is so good in so many other ways that people are willing to put up with a lot more minor problems. Things like the infamous misaligned panels might be annoying visually, but it doesn't affect your ability to drive the car. Or it could be that the problems only really show up after a few years and most people voting up the Tesla are driving cars less than, say 3-5 years old. Beyond that it seems to be one extremely unreliable model really dragging down the overall score. If all the other models are OK on reliability and great in every other respect then that can also explain the discrepancy.

commoner 5y ago

Tesla isn't the only brand that has received an Excellent rating for owner satisfaction but a Poor rating for reliability from Consumer Reports surveys. Dyson also earned the same two ratings for several of its stick vacuums in 2019: https://www.consumerreports.org/stick-vacuums/dyson-stick-vacuums-lose-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues-a3791934667/ https://www.consumerreports.org/stick-vacuums/dyson-stick-va... Some brands just seem to command more loyalty from their customers than the quality of their products can justify.

closetohome 5y ago
Failure rate isn't the only metric that affects customer satisfaction. If the product works better than any of its competition, but has a 10% rate of complete failure (which is insanely high for a retail product), you're still going to have 90% customer satisfaction.

hulitu 5y ago

> On topic though, if they are so unreliable, why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? Because when you buy expensive toys and show them to your friends you cannot admit that they are crap ? It happens all the time.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
Yeah, it's a reasonable explanation, the people who really gave their money for the cars are the converted/convinced/conned ones. And people hate to shatter their belief in their own sense of judgement. Note I say it's a reasonable explanation, although I don't want to assert how accurate it is in regards to Tesla owners - someone should do the actual research.
ryzvonusef 5y ago
But this not the grapevine; iirc they generate results from (if not anonymous then atleast not publicly shared) replies to Consumer Reports subscriber survey. So from the entire pool of CR subscriber base who agree to reply to their annual survey and who self-report to own Teslas, this group both overwhelmingly chooses to report significant number of car issues AND chooses to report great satisfaction? What is up with this group of people?
- hn8788 5y ago
  I think it's because people who buy a Tesla are fans of Tesla, so the well known reliability issues aren't a problem to them. They aren't buying a Tesla for practical reasons like affordability and reliability, they're buying a Tesla because they want to own a Tesla. It's the same as people who buy poorly made expensive designer clothes and accessories.
  - SyzygistSix 5y ago
    Helping move away from petro-powered transportation is a huge incentive for a lot of people. And it's not like Teslas are terrible or have a worse driving experience than other cars. There is a reason that every single electric car made by anyone is sold far in advance, including non-Teslas where charging on road trips is still a sub par experience.
    - JeremyNT 5y ago
      > Helping move away from petro-powered transportation is a huge incentive for a lot of people. If somebody was serious about this as their primary motivator, they'd buy a much more reliable / affordable vehicle like the Bolt or Leaf.

martin8412 5y ago

Let's see how well Berlin is going to go when Elon finds out about German unions. German workers are not going to accept the slave level work conditions that are common in the US.

tzs 5y ago

> On topic though, if they are so unreliable, why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? Maybe for a lot of people reliability isn't a major concern? People who get a new car every few years even if the old one runs fine just need their car to last until then. People like me who stick with a car much longer [1] put reliability much higher on our requirements. [1] I'm driving a 2006 Honda CR-V that I bought new and hope to keep driving for another 15+ years, albeit at some point I plan to get an EV for my around town daily driving keeping the CR-V for when I need more cargo or longer distance. Just waiting on that for an EV that I can keep for 20+ years without it costing a fortune over that time in battery repair/replacement. I really want the next car I buy to be the last car I buy.

DeathArrow 5y ago
>Just waiting on that for an EV that I can keep for 20+ years without it costing a fortune over that time in battery repair/replacement. You will live a long life for sure. :)
- tzs 5y ago
  Yeah...I may compromise and make that last car a PHEV. My normal daily driving is under the all electric range of most PHEVs, and since they have smaller batteries than full EVs battery repair/replacement should be cheaper. The plan would then be a PHEV sedan mostly used just on battery, the CR-V for when I need more cargo capacity, and either the CR-V or PHEV for those rare longer trips depending on how much stuff I need to carry. A plus for that approach is that since the PHEV would not be used much in ICE mode I hopefully would get a very long lifetime out of the ICE side of it. If I go for a PHEV SUV instead of a PHEV sedan, then I'm even covered if the CR-V dies before me. I have hope though that as EVs become more common battery repair/replacement will come down. In particular I'm hoping multiple manufacturers standardize on using the same cells in their batteries and make the individual cells replaceable so that battery repair becomes a standard thing you can have done at a typical independent car repair shop, rather than something you have to go to the dealer for and has to be done with parts from the car manufacturer.

dagw 5y ago

why are do they have such high consumer satisfaction ratings? Could be that the car is so good in so many other ways that people are willing to put up with a lot more minor problems. Things like the infamous misaligned panels might be annoying visually, but it doesn't affect your ability to drive the car. Or it could be that the problems only really show up after a few years and most people voting up the Tesla are driving cars less than, say 3-5 years old. Beyond that it seems to be one extremely unreliable model really dragging down the overall score. If all the other models are OK on reliability and great in every other respect then that can also explain the discrepancy.