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Author of the post here: If you are not sure this is serious or not I have succeeded at creating enough surrealism to make you not sure. RE: React, to quote my

by xena 5y ago

Author of the post here: If you are not sure this is serious or not I have succeeded at creating enough surrealism to make you not sure. RE: React, to quote my own post: > All the tools require me to do so much bullshit to get them to even compile. I shouldn't need to compile JavaScript to JavaScript in order to deploy stuff to a webpage. I don't want to give Facebook a grant to any patents I end up creating.

andrewstuart 5y ago
Yeah I read the patents thing and decided this couldn't be serious because you don't need to grant facebook patents to use React. Saying things like that doesn't give the post credibility, just snark. If I'm wrong, then please show the credible references with links. >>All the tools require me to do so much bullshit to get them to even compile. This is flat out wrong too unless you're referring to the situation pre 2016 before Create React App. It's false information. There's better and more valid criticisms of React such as for example why does it hijack CSS when it really absolutely does not need to and this causes all sorts of problems.
- neetle 5y ago
  This library can be dropped into the headers of a html file to be used, rather than a compile step via Create React App. Create React App is likely one of the issues.
  - KrishnaShripad 5y ago
    You can do the same with React as well.
    - neetle 5y ago
      Eh, not really. I can straight-up embed the source of this and run with it if I want something that's html++ rather than "a new JS project". I know the API, because the source is simple. It's a small tool, for small jobs. There is nothing wrong with choosing the simpler option.
      - kiliancs 5y ago
        So they are not exactly the same tool, but you can embed it and run with it, and use for some parts of your page, for example.
      - KrishnaShripad 5y ago
        I am sorry but what exactly is not possible with React? It is literally the same API. To prove to you, I used the same code Xena used in the article and reproduced it with React: https://codesandbox.io/s/mutable-water-y385q?file=/index.html https://codesandbox.io/s/mutable-water-y385q?file=/index.htm... No compilation. No build. Nothing. Same API too.
        rakoo 5y ago
        It's not the same thing. GP says that the entire source code of xena can be directly copy-pasted in your business javascript code, or even in your html; no need for imports, no need for CDNs, a process under control from beginning to end. What you're proposing is essentially saying "look, it's easy to fly, here's how you do it in python": import antigravity def main(): antigravity.fly() if __name__ == '__main__': main()
        KrishnaShripad 5y ago
        Nope. Have you actually looked at Xena's source code? She actually imports her own library: `import { g, h, x } from "/static/js/xeact.min.js";` Please see her source as I have used the same source, sans her library, to replicate it with React. Instead of importing from "/static/js/xeact.min.js", I am importing React. There is literally no other difference. > can be directly copy-pasted in your business javascript code Why can't you do the same with React? You literally can copy-paste entire React code in your HTML. Nothing stops you from doing that. Doesn't matter if you import it as a file or inline it in your HTML. It is plain old Javascript at the end of the day.
- xena 5y ago
  Things that are one step for you may be way more than one step for others. I want to avoid complication whenever possible. When I need to write JavaScript, I just want to write JavaScript instead of doing so much bullshit to get it to fit into Nix or `go build` or whatever. `create-react-app` is great for other people, but other people have different constraints and you cannot expect your experiences to be universally understood and accepted as fact.
  - KrishnaShripad 5y ago
    I don't understand this criticism. Which other language lets you get away without compilation or build of some kind? Every language I have used has some form of build or compilation step before running the program. Unless you are building absolutely trivial programs like a "Hello World" you have to do some amount of build/compilation/orchestration (whatever you may want to call it).
    - xena 5y ago
      The main problem is that `go build` has no escape hatches for running arbitrary code at compile time, so I want to remove ways for me to get the code in emacs out of sync with the code that runs in the binary. In this case it means ripping out literally everything involved with JavaScript build tooling. This also helps keep the semantic space for the service down a lot.
      - andrewstuart 5y ago
        I've never used anything except "npm run/build" for all my react since 2016. What's the problem?
        cxr 5y ago
        You know what's easier than doing that? Not doing it. This discussion feels a lot like what's happening over in the thread on The Spiral Staircase Myth <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875> The onus is not on anyone to explain why React shouldn't be used. The ordinary state of the world is not React. It's not a naturally occurring substance. The onus is on you to show why the React ritual and all the boondoggle that comes along with it is justified. To put it another way: "I don't understand your criticism. Christine has a workflow. (As it happens, it doesn't involve running a build step.) What's the problem?"
KrishnaShripad 5y ago
> I don't want to give Facebook a grant to any patents I end up creating. No longer true. > All the tools require me to do so much bullshit to get them to even compile Tooling has changed quite a bit. Especially with tools like ViteJS. You don't need to configure practically anything and get a project off the ground with develop/build times in milliseconds. I am happy that it is moving in the right direction. This churn was required so the industry could figure out what the pain points really are.
- xena 5y ago
  > No longer true. If this is the case, I admit I fucked up and will go correct the post with an addendum. > Tooling has changed quite a bit. I just wanna pull in a JS file from `go build` via `go:embed` and have it work lol. I'm not doing rocket science here, I just want thing to go. If it is not less effort than putting static files into a binary then I'm sorry but you've lost me.
  - KrishnaShripad 5y ago
    > I just wanna pull in a JS file from `go build` via `go:embed` and have it work lol. I'm not doing rocket science here, I just want thing to go. If it is not less effort than putting static files into a binary then I'm sorry but you've lost me. Why would I want to put JS/static files inside a binary? Sounds like too much effort to do something as simple as hosting the files directly. There is literally no need to put things in a binary if all you have to do is host a static website. Some services (like Netlify Drop [1]) just let you drop your entire folder with your static files and you get a URL in the end which you can share with anyone you like. Why would I go through the hassle of creating a binary (which is way more complicated) than just dropping a folder into a service like Netlify Drop [1]? I am just giving an example of right service/tooling trumping complicated binary builds. [1]: https://app.netlify.com/drop https://app.netlify.com/drop
    - neetle 5y ago
      How is "go build ." and scp more complex than managing an integration with a 3rd party using a proprietary API

by xena 5y ago

andrewstuart 5y ago

Yeah I read the patents thing and decided this couldn't be serious because you don't need to grant facebook patents to use React. Saying things like that doesn't give the post credibility, just snark. If I'm wrong, then please show the credible references with links. >>All the tools require me to do so much bullshit to get them to even compile. This is flat out wrong too unless you're referring to the situation pre 2016 before Create React App. It's false information. There's better and more valid criticisms of React such as for example why does it hijack CSS when it really absolutely does not need to and this causes all sorts of problems.

neetle 5y ago
This library can be dropped into the headers of a html file to be used, rather than a compile step via Create React App. Create React App is likely one of the issues.
- KrishnaShripad 5y ago
  You can do the same with React as well.
  - neetle 5y ago
    Eh, not really. I can straight-up embed the source of this and run with it if I want something that's html++ rather than "a new JS project". I know the API, because the source is simple. It's a small tool, for small jobs. There is nothing wrong with choosing the simpler option.
    - kiliancs 5y ago
      So they are not exactly the same tool, but you can embed it and run with it, and use for some parts of your page, for example.
    - KrishnaShripad 5y ago
      I am sorry but what exactly is not possible with React? It is literally the same API. To prove to you, I used the same code Xena used in the article and reproduced it with React: https://codesandbox.io/s/mutable-water-y385q?file=/index.html https://codesandbox.io/s/mutable-water-y385q?file=/index.htm... No compilation. No build. Nothing. Same API too.
      - rakoo 5y ago
        It's not the same thing. GP says that the entire source code of xena can be directly copy-pasted in your business javascript code, or even in your html; no need for imports, no need for CDNs, a process under control from beginning to end. What you're proposing is essentially saying "look, it's easy to fly, here's how you do it in python": import antigravity def main(): antigravity.fly() if __name__ == '__main__': main()
        KrishnaShripad 5y ago
        Nope. Have you actually looked at Xena's source code? She actually imports her own library: `import { g, h, x } from "/static/js/xeact.min.js";` Please see her source as I have used the same source, sans her library, to replicate it with React. Instead of importing from "/static/js/xeact.min.js", I am importing React. There is literally no other difference. > can be directly copy-pasted in your business javascript code Why can't you do the same with React? You literally can copy-paste entire React code in your HTML. Nothing stops you from doing that. Doesn't matter if you import it as a file or inline it in your HTML. It is plain old Javascript at the end of the day.
xena 5y ago
Things that are one step for you may be way more than one step for others. I want to avoid complication whenever possible. When I need to write JavaScript, I just want to write JavaScript instead of doing so much bullshit to get it to fit into Nix or `go build` or whatever. `create-react-app` is great for other people, but other people have different constraints and you cannot expect your experiences to be universally understood and accepted as fact.
- KrishnaShripad 5y ago
  I don't understand this criticism. Which other language lets you get away without compilation or build of some kind? Every language I have used has some form of build or compilation step before running the program. Unless you are building absolutely trivial programs like a "Hello World" you have to do some amount of build/compilation/orchestration (whatever you may want to call it).
  - xena 5y ago
    The main problem is that `go build` has no escape hatches for running arbitrary code at compile time, so I want to remove ways for me to get the code in emacs out of sync with the code that runs in the binary. In this case it means ripping out literally everything involved with JavaScript build tooling. This also helps keep the semantic space for the service down a lot.
    - andrewstuart 5y ago
      I've never used anything except "npm run/build" for all my react since 2016. What's the problem?
      - cxr 5y ago
        You know what's easier than doing that? Not doing it. This discussion feels a lot like what's happening over in the thread on The Spiral Staircase Myth <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29274875> The onus is not on anyone to explain why React shouldn't be used. The ordinary state of the world is not React. It's not a naturally occurring substance. The onus is on you to show why the React ritual and all the boondoggle that comes along with it is justified. To put it another way: "I don't understand your criticism. Christine has a workflow. (As it happens, it doesn't involve running a build step.) What's the problem?"

KrishnaShripad 5y ago

> I don't want to give Facebook a grant to any patents I end up creating. No longer true. > All the tools require me to do so much bullshit to get them to even compile Tooling has changed quite a bit. Especially with tools like ViteJS. You don't need to configure practically anything and get a project off the ground with develop/build times in milliseconds. I am happy that it is moving in the right direction. This churn was required so the industry could figure out what the pain points really are.

xena 5y ago
> No longer true. If this is the case, I admit I fucked up and will go correct the post with an addendum. > Tooling has changed quite a bit. I just wanna pull in a JS file from `go build` via `go:embed` and have it work lol. I'm not doing rocket science here, I just want thing to go. If it is not less effort than putting static files into a binary then I'm sorry but you've lost me.
- KrishnaShripad 5y ago
  > I just wanna pull in a JS file from `go build` via `go:embed` and have it work lol. I'm not doing rocket science here, I just want thing to go. If it is not less effort than putting static files into a binary then I'm sorry but you've lost me. Why would I want to put JS/static files inside a binary? Sounds like too much effort to do something as simple as hosting the files directly. There is literally no need to put things in a binary if all you have to do is host a static website. Some services (like Netlify Drop [1]) just let you drop your entire folder with your static files and you get a URL in the end which you can share with anyone you like. Why would I go through the hassle of creating a binary (which is way more complicated) than just dropping a folder into a service like Netlify Drop [1]? I am just giving an example of right service/tooling trumping complicated binary builds. [1]: https://app.netlify.com/drop https://app.netlify.com/drop
  - neetle 5y ago
    How is "go build ." and scp more complex than managing an integration with a 3rd party using a proprietary API