5 ms·

The plan is for SpaceX to send 3 uncrewed launches to Mars (with equipment and supplies) before sending people. I think that if they succeed with Starship, they

The plan is for SpaceX to send 3 uncrewed launches to Mars (with equipment and supplies) before sending people. I think that if they succeed with Starship, they can very much do it. And IMO, the more SpaceX progresses, the more people will get excited about space and investment money will be thrown at space technology. I invested some money in Rocket Lab, because they are a public company and the next best thing after SpaceX IMO.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
Excitement cannot overcome a lack of exploitable natural resources at the destination.
- caconym_ 5y ago
  Nation-state scale science programs notwithstanding, I think the possibility of independent sovereignty will be the main draw of going to Mars, if/when independent survival is technologically (and economically, in the local scope) feasible. There are absolutely exploitable resources there; they are just irrelevant to an Earth-centric economy because of the prohibitive cost of hauling them out of Mars' gravity well and down to Earth. But if you've gone to Mars to be independent there, Earth's economy will become similarly irrelevant to you.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Humans evolved to depend on air, water, food, and a radiation shield that don't occur naturally on Mars. Being on Mars a few decades is unlikely to change those fundamentals.
    - caconym_ 5y ago
      Maybe your initial comment was not clear. Reproduced below: > Excitement cannot overcome a lack of exploitable natural resources at the destination. In context ("the more SpaceX progresses, the more people will get excited about space and investment money will be thrown at space technology"), I assumed your point was that natural resources on Mars cannot be economically relevant to Earth-based investors, and therefore no such investment money will be "thrown" at Mars colonization regardless of how "excited" people are about the idea. Hence the substance of my reply. Did you instead mean to say that air, water, food, and radiation shielding are intractable problems for Mars colonization?
      - beerandt 5y ago
        It's both. Without local resources, whether economic or life-sustaining, you're not really a colony, but a scientific expedition or military outpost or both. Both of which put you under the political authority (and reliance for survival) of your sponsoring entity, which to me largely quashes the whole sovereignty appeal. That isn't to say that there won't be "true believers" who buy into the idea of starting a colony, as it's sold by Elon or NASA or the US Space Force or whoever. I'm sure they'll find volunteers.
        caconym_ 5y ago
        You also seem to be taking as a given that independent survival on Mars is functionally impossible due to a lack of "local resources" from which to derive the essentials of survival viz. "air, water, food, and radiation shielding". Is that correct? My original comment explicitly (see: "if/when independent survival is [...] feasible") takes no position on this matter.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I forgot that 'if' when I read: > There are absolutely exploitable resources there; they are just irrelevant... Because I haven't read of any human-sustaining resources except some ice. Rather that analyzed samples of the soil and atmosphere are too toxic and radiation at the surface too high.
        caconym_ 5y ago
        It's definitely not an easy place to live. My understanding is that even in a best case scenario where everything you need turns out to be theoretically available, you'll need a bunch of currently-speculative industrial processes to extract it at scale. I'm not convinced it's intractable, though, especially with a few more decades of progress in industrial automation.
        anders_p 5y ago
        "My original comment explicitly (see: "if/when independent survival is [...] feasible") takes no position on this matter." Since "independent survival" will never be feasible on Mars, your comment sounds like pure fiction. It's not like you can just go out in the wilderness and kill an animal for food, or find a river to drink from. You can't even breathe there. "Independent survival" is barely even feasible on Earth. You will always be dependent on the facilities, supply ships, etc. Then there's the question of protecting what you have, without having any authorities, law enforcement, etc. to help you. If you go there, it will most likely be an experience as in the old mining towns, where a single company owned everything, (factory, shops, residential areas, recreational areas, etc), and the workers will mainly be paid in "company bucks", that can only be used there. For most people, it'll be like a dystopian neo-feudalistic nightmare, you can't wake up from. One where you can't even quit your job, because there's nowhere else to go. Indentured servitude on another planet. But the Elon fan boys will no doubt be happy to sign up for it anyway.
    - DennisP 5y ago
      Mars has oxygen, water, carbon, sunlight, and completely untouched mineral resources. Mars is the one place in the solar system besides Earth where it's possible to grow plants on natural sunlight. Radiation on Mars is actually not that bad[1], it's comparable to the radiation levels in Ramsar, Iran, where people live happily to a normal age without elevated cancer rates. The perchlorates in Martian soil won't be hard to deal with either[2]. [1] https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/10/20/omg-space-is-full-of-radiation-and-why-im-not-worried/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/10/20/omg-space-is-f... [2] https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/even-the-dirt-is-poisonous/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/even-the-dirt-...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I've heard it said before, there is no economic benefit to going and there never will be. People will go because they want to go. Perhaps one day, when a ton of people live outside of gravity wells, there will be an economic incentive, but as of right now, there's no money to be made.
gooseus 5y ago
I would like to see SpaceX outline a roadmap according to each Mars transfer window, currently don't see it[1]: 2022/08/07 - Assume no transit 2024/09/26 - First uncrewed launch (X tons of supply) 2026/11/15 - Second uncrewed launch (X2 tons of supply) 2029/01/03 - Third uncrewed launch (X3 tons of supply) 2031/02/22 - First crewed launch (X4 tons of supply, Y tons of people) 2033/04/11 - Second crewed launch (X5 tons of supply, Y2 tons of people) 2035/05/30 - etc... ... [2] This way we can compare progress and keep pushing the schedule out as each transfer is missed to give a more realistic sense for what we're trying to do here. My sense is that if people would really to dig into the numbers (and I'm sure someone has) to calculate out the tonnage and delta-v required and how that translates to resources (money, energy, humans) over time (esp considering regulations and safety factors) then I think we would get a more realistic sense of we're trying to do here and realize how insane it is to think we'd have anything resembling a "colony" by 2050 (14 transfer windows). A 2050 Moon colony is a far more realistic prediction, though also somewhat far fetched unless we've solved the problem of economic and political instability. [1] https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ [2] http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/EMa.htm http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/EMa.htm

paulryanrogers 5y ago

Excitement cannot overcome a lack of exploitable natural resources at the destination.

caconym_ 5y ago
Nation-state scale science programs notwithstanding, I think the possibility of independent sovereignty will be the main draw of going to Mars, if/when independent survival is technologically (and economically, in the local scope) feasible. There are absolutely exploitable resources there; they are just irrelevant to an Earth-centric economy because of the prohibitive cost of hauling them out of Mars' gravity well and down to Earth. But if you've gone to Mars to be independent there, Earth's economy will become similarly irrelevant to you.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  Humans evolved to depend on air, water, food, and a radiation shield that don't occur naturally on Mars. Being on Mars a few decades is unlikely to change those fundamentals.
  - caconym_ 5y ago
    Maybe your initial comment was not clear. Reproduced below: > Excitement cannot overcome a lack of exploitable natural resources at the destination. In context ("the more SpaceX progresses, the more people will get excited about space and investment money will be thrown at space technology"), I assumed your point was that natural resources on Mars cannot be economically relevant to Earth-based investors, and therefore no such investment money will be "thrown" at Mars colonization regardless of how "excited" people are about the idea. Hence the substance of my reply. Did you instead mean to say that air, water, food, and radiation shielding are intractable problems for Mars colonization?
    - beerandt 5y ago
      It's both. Without local resources, whether economic or life-sustaining, you're not really a colony, but a scientific expedition or military outpost or both. Both of which put you under the political authority (and reliance for survival) of your sponsoring entity, which to me largely quashes the whole sovereignty appeal. That isn't to say that there won't be "true believers" who buy into the idea of starting a colony, as it's sold by Elon or NASA or the US Space Force or whoever. I'm sure they'll find volunteers.
      - caconym_ 5y ago
        You also seem to be taking as a given that independent survival on Mars is functionally impossible due to a lack of "local resources" from which to derive the essentials of survival viz. "air, water, food, and radiation shielding". Is that correct? My original comment explicitly (see: "if/when independent survival is [...] feasible") takes no position on this matter.
        paulryanrogers 5y ago
        Thanks for pointing that out. Guess I forgot that 'if' when I read: > There are absolutely exploitable resources there; they are just irrelevant... Because I haven't read of any human-sustaining resources except some ice. Rather that analyzed samples of the soil and atmosphere are too toxic and radiation at the surface too high.
        caconym_ 5y ago
        It's definitely not an easy place to live. My understanding is that even in a best case scenario where everything you need turns out to be theoretically available, you'll need a bunch of currently-speculative industrial processes to extract it at scale. I'm not convinced it's intractable, though, especially with a few more decades of progress in industrial automation.
        anders_p 5y ago
        "My original comment explicitly (see: "if/when independent survival is [...] feasible") takes no position on this matter." Since "independent survival" will never be feasible on Mars, your comment sounds like pure fiction. It's not like you can just go out in the wilderness and kill an animal for food, or find a river to drink from. You can't even breathe there. "Independent survival" is barely even feasible on Earth. You will always be dependent on the facilities, supply ships, etc. Then there's the question of protecting what you have, without having any authorities, law enforcement, etc. to help you. If you go there, it will most likely be an experience as in the old mining towns, where a single company owned everything, (factory, shops, residential areas, recreational areas, etc), and the workers will mainly be paid in "company bucks", that can only be used there. For most people, it'll be like a dystopian neo-feudalistic nightmare, you can't wake up from. One where you can't even quit your job, because there's nowhere else to go. Indentured servitude on another planet. But the Elon fan boys will no doubt be happy to sign up for it anyway.
  - DennisP 5y ago
    Mars has oxygen, water, carbon, sunlight, and completely untouched mineral resources. Mars is the one place in the solar system besides Earth where it's possible to grow plants on natural sunlight. Radiation on Mars is actually not that bad[1], it's comparable to the radiation levels in Ramsar, Iran, where people live happily to a normal age without elevated cancer rates. The perchlorates in Martian soil won't be hard to deal with either[2]. [1] https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/10/20/omg-space-is-full-of-radiation-and-why-im-not-worried/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/10/20/omg-space-is-f... [2] https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/even-the-dirt-is-poisonous/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/04/20/even-the-dirt-...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
betwixthewires 5y ago
I've heard it said before, there is no economic benefit to going and there never will be. People will go because they want to go. Perhaps one day, when a ton of people live outside of gravity wells, there will be an economic incentive, but as of right now, there's no money to be made.

gooseus 5y ago

I would like to see SpaceX outline a roadmap according to each Mars transfer window, currently don't see it[1]: 2022/08/07 - Assume no transit 2024/09/26 - First uncrewed launch (X tons of supply) 2026/11/15 - Second uncrewed launch (X2 tons of supply) 2029/01/03 - Third uncrewed launch (X3 tons of supply) 2031/02/22 - First crewed launch (X4 tons of supply, Y tons of people) 2033/04/11 - Second crewed launch (X5 tons of supply, Y2 tons of people) 2035/05/30 - etc... ... [2] This way we can compare progress and keep pushing the schedule out as each transfer is missed to give a more realistic sense for what we're trying to do here. My sense is that if people would really to dig into the numbers (and I'm sure someone has) to calculate out the tonnage and delta-v required and how that translates to resources (money, energy, humans) over time (esp considering regulations and safety factors) then I think we would get a more realistic sense of we're trying to do here and realize how insane it is to think we'd have anything resembling a "colony" by 2050 (14 transfer windows). A 2050 Moon colony is a far more realistic prediction, though also somewhat far fetched unless we've solved the problem of economic and political instability. [1] https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ https://www.spacex.com/human-spaceflight/mars/ [2] http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/EMa.htm http://clowder.net/hop/railroad/EMa.htm