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There's no such thing as "tax abuse". It's either illegal tax evasion or operating within the established legal framework. If a territory is "missing out" on t

There's no such thing as "tax abuse". It's either illegal tax evasion or operating within the established legal framework. If a territory is "missing out" on tax revenue perhaps they should take some time to introspect and think about why rather than blame the evil business owners doing the rational thing.

chris11 5y ago
> It's either illegal tax evasion or operating within the established legal framework Is someone committing a crime by aggressively reducing their taxes if they don't get audited? Not paying taxes isn't a crime, but the IRS has been decreasing audits of the rich.
- danielmarkbruce 5y ago
  Getting audited or not doesn't change if the act is a crime. That's like saying "did Mr Y commit a crime when he murdered Mr X, if he didn't get caught?". Of course he committed a crime. Not paying taxes certainly can be a crime. The point of the person above is valid - it's bs to call something 'tax abuse'. It's either illegal or not. It might be a grey area which hasn't been tested yet and there is a process to decide the outcome. It is eventually deemed illegal or not.
  - chris11 5y ago
    I think it's more like asking "Should Mr Y have been ticketed for reckless driving" if it's on a backcountry road without cops or speed limit signs. Not getting audited doesn't mean it was ethical. I'm comfortable saying a tax loophole should be banned without saying it's users are criminals or either unethical. Asking if someone should be able to deduct their private jet is a political question to me, not a legal one. But there are other instance where people are taking advantage of lack of enforcement. For instance conservation easements. There's an example of a mining developer who gave 6000 acres to a charitable trust in CA. An issue is the mining company didn't own the subsurface gas and mineral rights to the land. They weren't explicitly clear about that when donating, so the donation was probably overvalued. https://www.kassounilaw.com/publications/the-uses-and-abuses-of-conservation-easements/ https://www.kassounilaw.com/publications/the-uses-and-abuses...
    - jjk166 5y ago
      Speeding is illegal whether you get a ticket or not. There is no such thing as speed abuse.
      - chris11 5y ago
        Speeding is straightforward to determine, just check the speed limit and how fast you were going. Reckless driving is a judgement call. Going to far over the speed limit means you'll probably get a reckless driving ticket if caught. But speeding isn't necessary for a reckless driving charge. It looks like court precedence is really important in some areas of tax law in determining what's ok. It's a problem if someone can take a really novel and beneficial reading of a policy and assume they won't have to defend it.
        jjk166 5y ago
        And taxes, like speeding, aren't a judgement call. There are specific rules for what you do or don't owe, and you either are breaking them or you're not. Court precedence in common law countries like the US is equivalent to law.
- defaultprimate 5y ago
  If someone is legally "aggressively reducing their taxes", the problem is with (likely the unnecessary complexity and wasteful bureaucracy of) the tax code. This piece reads like a retail store owner complaining about people buying their products on sale and stacking coupons, that are explicitly permitted in the terms of the sale, on the sale items. Are you aware of what percentage of aggregate tax revenue the "rich" are responsible for in the US (or heck your home country if elsewhere)? How about the bottom 80%?

chris11 5y ago

> It's either illegal tax evasion or operating within the established legal framework Is someone committing a crime by aggressively reducing their taxes if they don't get audited? Not paying taxes isn't a crime, but the IRS has been decreasing audits of the rich.

danielmarkbruce 5y ago
Getting audited or not doesn't change if the act is a crime. That's like saying "did Mr Y commit a crime when he murdered Mr X, if he didn't get caught?". Of course he committed a crime. Not paying taxes certainly can be a crime. The point of the person above is valid - it's bs to call something 'tax abuse'. It's either illegal or not. It might be a grey area which hasn't been tested yet and there is a process to decide the outcome. It is eventually deemed illegal or not.
- chris11 5y ago
  I think it's more like asking "Should Mr Y have been ticketed for reckless driving" if it's on a backcountry road without cops or speed limit signs. Not getting audited doesn't mean it was ethical. I'm comfortable saying a tax loophole should be banned without saying it's users are criminals or either unethical. Asking if someone should be able to deduct their private jet is a political question to me, not a legal one. But there are other instance where people are taking advantage of lack of enforcement. For instance conservation easements. There's an example of a mining developer who gave 6000 acres to a charitable trust in CA. An issue is the mining company didn't own the subsurface gas and mineral rights to the land. They weren't explicitly clear about that when donating, so the donation was probably overvalued. https://www.kassounilaw.com/publications/the-uses-and-abuses-of-conservation-easements/ https://www.kassounilaw.com/publications/the-uses-and-abuses...
  - jjk166 5y ago
    Speeding is illegal whether you get a ticket or not. There is no such thing as speed abuse.
    - chris11 5y ago
      Speeding is straightforward to determine, just check the speed limit and how fast you were going. Reckless driving is a judgement call. Going to far over the speed limit means you'll probably get a reckless driving ticket if caught. But speeding isn't necessary for a reckless driving charge. It looks like court precedence is really important in some areas of tax law in determining what's ok. It's a problem if someone can take a really novel and beneficial reading of a policy and assume they won't have to defend it.
      - jjk166 5y ago
        And taxes, like speeding, aren't a judgement call. There are specific rules for what you do or don't owe, and you either are breaking them or you're not. Court precedence in common law countries like the US is equivalent to law.
defaultprimate 5y ago
If someone is legally "aggressively reducing their taxes", the problem is with (likely the unnecessary complexity and wasteful bureaucracy of) the tax code. This piece reads like a retail store owner complaining about people buying their products on sale and stacking coupons, that are explicitly permitted in the terms of the sale, on the sale items. Are you aware of what percentage of aggregate tax revenue the "rich" are responsible for in the US (or heck your home country if elsewhere)? How about the bottom 80%?