5 ms·

I think it's interesting phenomenon on its own that Kasparov is taking a fairly centrist stance here through a careful choice of words (cancelling books getting

by lhorie 5y ago

I think it's interesting phenomenon on its own that Kasparov is taking a fairly centrist stance here through a careful choice of words (cancelling books getting tends to be done by one side and cancelling professors is often done by the other side) and specifically calling out to promote more freedom regardless of what side you're on, but here in the comments people are looking at it from a bipartisan blame-shifting perspective. The parallel to my immediate life that comes to mind is when my kids are bickering about some inconsequential triviality and I say "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting". It must surely be an "important" topic for them that they feel the need to argue about it, but in the grander scheme of things, the resolution shouldn't come at a cost of a losing a core principle (i.e. aiming for resolution through vengeful means is not a productive course of action).

watwut 5y ago
> "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting" I stopped doing that when I realized this is systematically enabling aggressor. The kid that minds own business is on the defense and effectively forced always do what aggressor wants. Because if it protects or defends itself, adult steps in to tell him he is equally wrong.
- ajuc 5y ago
  It's less harmful in family (because the assumption is that ultimately kids do love each other and won't do anything really bad). But I've mostly encountered this sentiment at school when somebody is bullied. And there it can be really bad, for a really long time. And that response is basically adults telling the victim "Nobody cares".
  - avmich 5y ago
    That's why in families it's an appropriate action, and in school isn't. In school there is a better (worse?) chance to meet somebody particularly nasty, who's bullying kids around. That should be answered by "authorities". In families it's less of the case, so GP logic is reasonable. I keep a high respect to Gary Kasparov. I however have a question regarding what he writes here - "It is the coordinated, coercive attempt to win a debate by ending debate—to punish, not to educate." Could it be that those who "cancel" just found a tool which is more effective than those before, something which they were missing in the "old status quo" of inter-class interactions? Could it be that the voices of those who do cancelling today weren't heard enough, so now they use this new opportunity to participate in the societal decisions?
    - watwut 5y ago
      It is not appropriate in families. It just does less harm, because parents are more likely to notice harm and change. When I wrote "I have seen it" originally I meant siblings in families. At this point, I have seen dynamic three times. Each time one kid ended up being systematic aggressor and other victim. The victim was pushed to submissivity and aggressor honestly believed he/she is entitled to act like that. And that victim is bad for defending own toys or boundaries. And each time it went on, until parents changed approach.
- lhorie 5y ago
  Oh to clarify, I know who "started it" (the themes are fairly easily distinguishable, usually falling in one of two buckets: bullying/nagging/disrespect for boundaries or "calvin-ball"-like disagreements; and mostly the latter). If the theme falls in the former category, that kid gets chewed on right from the start. If it's not clear, I ask probing questions first.
downWidOutaFite 5y ago
"Cancel culture" is a recent term invented by the right as a pejorative for the left, so if you're going to use that loaded term you're signaling which side of the partisan divide you are on.
- LudwigNagasena 5y ago
  It’s funny how you cannot criticize anything anymore because whatever you say it gets interpreted as a right-wing neonazi dogwhistle.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    Yes, that is pretty funny, given that TFA is an article criticizing cancel culture itself, and that HN and an almost uncountable number of other media forms are full of actual criticism of all manner of things.
    - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
      Yes, and whenever anything like that comes up someone always comes and says how it is a dog whistle and what you really want to say is that you hate women and minorities and just want to perpetuate patriarchy and capitalism and you are just evil. But, yea, HN is quite countercultural in that regard. It is not as bad as at other places where such attitude is more prevalent.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
        So you have to deal with people who don't like what you have to say, and criticize you in a way that you don't like or agree with. Life is hard. This stuff happens, and if it doesn't, it's probably not a society any us would want to live in for long, since at some point we'll be the group being "nasty" to someone else.
- lhorie 5y ago
  Kasparov addresses that literally in the first two paragraphs: > The search is on for new words for old ideas. “Cancel culture” and “woke” have become overused and abused, part of a struggle to define one’s political opponents in the harshest possible way, to dismiss ideas as not only wrong or harmful, but intolerable. > As a nonnative English speaker, I am content to avoid rhetorical fashion and use older phrases I hear the term "cancelling" being used on the radio all the time by people that are obviously left leaning, here in California. Again, to go w/ childhood analogies, I'm not childish for saying the word "poop", but a person that reacts by giggling uncontrollably on the other hand...
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
> (cancelling books getting tends to be done by one side and cancelling professors is often done by the other side I can name dozens of books that have been "cancelled", almost entirely by conservatives. Depending on the definition of "cancel", I can think of very few professors that have been "cancelled" [0] at all, and roughly equal numbers by conservative and progressive perspectives. [0] "cancelled" in this case seems to typically mean not a lot more than had to listen to some unpleasant feedback on their views and/or behavior.

by lhorie 5y ago

watwut 5y ago

> "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting" I stopped doing that when I realized this is systematically enabling aggressor. The kid that minds own business is on the defense and effectively forced always do what aggressor wants. Because if it protects or defends itself, adult steps in to tell him he is equally wrong.

ajuc 5y ago
It's less harmful in family (because the assumption is that ultimately kids do love each other and won't do anything really bad). But I've mostly encountered this sentiment at school when somebody is bullied. And there it can be really bad, for a really long time. And that response is basically adults telling the victim "Nobody cares".
- avmich 5y ago
  That's why in families it's an appropriate action, and in school isn't. In school there is a better (worse?) chance to meet somebody particularly nasty, who's bullying kids around. That should be answered by "authorities". In families it's less of the case, so GP logic is reasonable. I keep a high respect to Gary Kasparov. I however have a question regarding what he writes here - "It is the coordinated, coercive attempt to win a debate by ending debate—to punish, not to educate." Could it be that those who "cancel" just found a tool which is more effective than those before, something which they were missing in the "old status quo" of inter-class interactions? Could it be that the voices of those who do cancelling today weren't heard enough, so now they use this new opportunity to participate in the societal decisions?
  - watwut 5y ago
    It is not appropriate in families. It just does less harm, because parents are more likely to notice harm and change. When I wrote "I have seen it" originally I meant siblings in families. At this point, I have seen dynamic three times. Each time one kid ended up being systematic aggressor and other victim. The victim was pushed to submissivity and aggressor honestly believed he/she is entitled to act like that. And that victim is bad for defending own toys or boundaries. And each time it went on, until parents changed approach.
lhorie 5y ago
Oh to clarify, I know who "started it" (the themes are fairly easily distinguishable, usually falling in one of two buckets: bullying/nagging/disrespect for boundaries or "calvin-ball"-like disagreements; and mostly the latter). If the theme falls in the former category, that kid gets chewed on right from the start. If it's not clear, I ask probing questions first.

downWidOutaFite 5y ago

"Cancel culture" is a recent term invented by the right as a pejorative for the left, so if you're going to use that loaded term you're signaling which side of the partisan divide you are on.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago
It’s funny how you cannot criticize anything anymore because whatever you say it gets interpreted as a right-wing neonazi dogwhistle.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  Yes, that is pretty funny, given that TFA is an article criticizing cancel culture itself, and that HN and an almost uncountable number of other media forms are full of actual criticism of all manner of things.
  - LudwigNagasena 5y ago
    Yes, and whenever anything like that comes up someone always comes and says how it is a dog whistle and what you really want to say is that you hate women and minorities and just want to perpetuate patriarchy and capitalism and you are just evil. But, yea, HN is quite countercultural in that regard. It is not as bad as at other places where such attitude is more prevalent.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
      So you have to deal with people who don't like what you have to say, and criticize you in a way that you don't like or agree with. Life is hard. This stuff happens, and if it doesn't, it's probably not a society any us would want to live in for long, since at some point we'll be the group being "nasty" to someone else.
lhorie 5y ago
Kasparov addresses that literally in the first two paragraphs: > The search is on for new words for old ideas. “Cancel culture” and “woke” have become overused and abused, part of a struggle to define one’s political opponents in the harshest possible way, to dismiss ideas as not only wrong or harmful, but intolerable. > As a nonnative English speaker, I am content to avoid rhetorical fashion and use older phrases I hear the term "cancelling" being used on the radio all the time by people that are obviously left leaning, here in California. Again, to go w/ childhood analogies, I'm not childish for saying the word "poop", but a person that reacts by giggling uncontrollably on the other hand...

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

> (cancelling books getting tends to be done by one side and cancelling professors is often done by the other side I can name dozens of books that have been "cancelled", almost entirely by conservatives. Depending on the definition of "cancel", I can think of very few professors that have been "cancelled" [0] at all, and roughly equal numbers by conservative and progressive perspectives. [0] "cancelled" in this case seems to typically mean not a lot more than had to listen to some unpleasant feedback on their views and/or behavior.