4 ms·

You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right. Leftism in colleges and academia is so rotten beyond

You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right. Leftism in colleges and academia is so rotten beyond belief. I am down with History of Racism, naked and in all its gory details. But, let's not confuse that with how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID. Vast majority of this is a push from Left, not the Right. Edit: Australia passes mass surveillance laws: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28451066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28451066 . I can't reply because of limits, been too much on HN, I need to get off :-). It is indirectly linked to quanrantine and other measures Australian government is taking as a result of COVID. I would go a step further and argue that the world has become more authoritarian post-COVID in general. Edit: Those saying this is a naive and disingenious take - my observations are pretty much consistent with censorship is mostly from the left than right. Sure you can give examples of suppression from the Right (which I would oppose), but that doesn't really change my observation. Generally speaking, it is indisputedly obvious to me. Here is an economist article that goes in much more depth than single counter examples in the responses: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/09/04/the-threat-from-the-illiberal-left https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/09/04/the-threat-from...

cool_dude85 5y ago
Look at Bari Weiss, who started a right wing free speech university and cut her teeth trying to get her professors fired in college for supporting Palestine.
yesenadam 5y ago
> how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID I don't know what you're referring to here, could you give some links? Thanks. (Sydney here) edit: The link you added is about new laws that seem nothing to do with covid. What's the connection? (And you edited again. Maybe I'll wait until you stop doing that. In general, please reply to comments rather than repeatedly adding to your initial comment!)
noelwelsh 5y ago
"I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right" This seems a very naive or disingenuous take. Here are two examples that immediately came to mind: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_the_Arts#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_the_Art... particularly actions against Mapplethorpe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed#Rece... 2006 Arizona State Legislature
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  I don't know if deciding whether not to fund the NEA or what books can be taught in school is really anti-freedom of speech. Someone has to decide what to teach children. Teachers and parents both influence that decision. Teachers through what books they pick and parents through who they elect. And since Teachers are to the left the population as a whole, it makes sense that they would push books to the left of center, and elected officials would rein in that impulse.
  - noelwelsh 5y ago
    What, then, do you think is an action that is against freedom of speech? To me these are textbook examples of censorship. Note that I don't think your summary captures the relevant facts. NEA: the issue is not whether it should be funded but how the funds, which were already approved, were allocated. Exhibitions were cancelled after receiving funding due to political pressure, and 4 artists won a court case when their funding was vetoed due to political pressure. Pedagogy of the oppressed. I'll just quote wikipedia here: "The book was among seven titles officially confiscated from Mexican American studies classrooms, sometimes in front of students, by the Tucson Unified School District after the passing of HB 2281." This was ruled a violation of the First Amendment: https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-arizona-mexican-american-studies-trial https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-a...
    - JamesBarney 5y ago
      I'm probably missing some context, but I'm not sure what about politician's arguing what artists the NEA should fund is against the 1st amendment. > This was ruled a violation of the First Amendment: https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-a https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-a... It looks like that ruling was just because it was racist, and has since been overturned at the circuit court. Maybe I don't understand something, but the government fundamentally determines what does and does not get taught in public schools.
joshuamorton 5y ago
What's your opinion on anti "critical race theory" laws that generally speaking ban teaching important aspects of civil rights history? These are basically solely pushed by the right, and have been passed in nearly a dozen states. The economist article you cite is interesting in that it doesn't actually explain what's wrong with the progressive approach, it just describes it as bad. It says > Individuals, not just groups, must be treated fairly for society to flourish. But this fails to realize that favoring "individuals" over groups disfavored the invidiuals in those groups. Intersectionality suggests that you can't treat individuals fairly without understanding how the groups they're apart of impact their identity. And this is really just disparate impact, a well understood, classically liberal, civil rights era policy that the right is slowly scratching away at!
cool_dude85 5y ago
Isn't it at least a little bit embarrassing to you to start with: "You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right." And then wind up saying sure, there are plenty of examples of right-wing censorship, but check out this article in the Economist? Come on.
JauntyHatAngle 5y ago
Mate, you literally linked Australian legislation that was passed by the "Right" party in Australia. They are just called the Liberals, but they are Economic Liberals, not social, and are considered our "right wing" party with an evangelical Christian as our Prime Minister.
- noelwelsh 5y ago
  Exactly. And on "Vast majority of this is a push from Left, not the Right" here's the Green Party (probably the most left Australian party of any size) opposing it: https://lidia-thorpe.greensmps.org.au/articles/more-police-powers-less-protections https://lidia-thorpe.greensmps.org.au/articles/more-police-p...
amalcon 5y ago
> Generally speaking, it is indisputedly obvious to me. When I catch myself saying things like this, I contemplate whether the availability heuristic is deceiving me. It might not be -- I haven't done a rigorous review of this topic either -- but I usually find it's worth introspection when I have this thought.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  I am the same way but here it is just plain in day light. Regardless of whether left or right is more prone to censorship, I am a proponent of free speech and civil rights, and any progress in that area is a win for society IMO.

cool_dude85 5y ago

Look at Bari Weiss, who started a right wing free speech university and cut her teeth trying to get her professors fired in college for supporting Palestine.

yesenadam 5y ago

> how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID I don't know what you're referring to here, could you give some links? Thanks. (Sydney here) edit: The link you added is about new laws that seem nothing to do with covid. What's the connection? (And you edited again. Maybe I'll wait until you stop doing that. In general, please reply to comments rather than repeatedly adding to your initial comment!)

noelwelsh 5y ago

"I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right" This seems a very naive or disingenuous take. Here are two examples that immediately came to mind: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_the_Arts#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_the_Art... particularly actions against Mapplethorpe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed#Reception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedagogy_of_the_Oppressed#Rece... 2006 Arizona State Legislature

JamesBarney 5y ago
I don't know if deciding whether not to fund the NEA or what books can be taught in school is really anti-freedom of speech. Someone has to decide what to teach children. Teachers and parents both influence that decision. Teachers through what books they pick and parents through who they elect. And since Teachers are to the left the population as a whole, it makes sense that they would push books to the left of center, and elected officials would rein in that impulse.
- noelwelsh 5y ago
  What, then, do you think is an action that is against freedom of speech? To me these are textbook examples of censorship. Note that I don't think your summary captures the relevant facts. NEA: the issue is not whether it should be funded but how the funds, which were already approved, were allocated. Exhibitions were cancelled after receiving funding due to political pressure, and 4 artists won a court case when their funding was vetoed due to political pressure. Pedagogy of the oppressed. I'll just quote wikipedia here: "The book was among seven titles officially confiscated from Mexican American studies classrooms, sometimes in front of students, by the Tucson Unified School District after the passing of HB 2281." This was ruled a violation of the First Amendment: https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-arizona-mexican-american-studies-trial https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-a...
  - JamesBarney 5y ago
    I'm probably missing some context, but I'm not sure what about politician's arguing what artists the NEA should fund is against the 1st amendment. > This was ruled a violation of the First Amendment: https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-a https://ncac.org/news/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-a... It looks like that ruling was just because it was racist, and has since been overturned at the circuit court. Maybe I don't understand something, but the government fundamentally determines what does and does not get taught in public schools.

joshuamorton 5y ago

What's your opinion on anti "critical race theory" laws that generally speaking ban teaching important aspects of civil rights history? These are basically solely pushed by the right, and have been passed in nearly a dozen states. The economist article you cite is interesting in that it doesn't actually explain what's wrong with the progressive approach, it just describes it as bad. It says > Individuals, not just groups, must be treated fairly for society to flourish. But this fails to realize that favoring "individuals" over groups disfavored the invidiuals in those groups. Intersectionality suggests that you can't treat individuals fairly without understanding how the groups they're apart of impact their identity. And this is really just disparate impact, a well understood, classically liberal, civil rights era policy that the right is slowly scratching away at!

cool_dude85 5y ago

Isn't it at least a little bit embarrassing to you to start with: "You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right." And then wind up saying sure, there are plenty of examples of right-wing censorship, but check out this article in the Economist? Come on.

JauntyHatAngle 5y ago

Mate, you literally linked Australian legislation that was passed by the "Right" party in Australia. They are just called the Liberals, but they are Economic Liberals, not social, and are considered our "right wing" party with an evangelical Christian as our Prime Minister.

noelwelsh 5y ago
Exactly. And on "Vast majority of this is a push from Left, not the Right" here's the Green Party (probably the most left Australian party of any size) opposing it: https://lidia-thorpe.greensmps.org.au/articles/more-police-powers-less-protections https://lidia-thorpe.greensmps.org.au/articles/more-police-p...

amalcon 5y ago

> Generally speaking, it is indisputedly obvious to me. When I catch myself saying things like this, I contemplate whether the availability heuristic is deceiving me. It might not be -- I haven't done a rigorous review of this topic either -- but I usually find it's worth introspection when I have this thought.

systemvoltage 5y ago
I am the same way but here it is just plain in day light. Regardless of whether left or right is more prone to censorship, I am a proponent of free speech and civil rights, and any progress in that area is a win for society IMO.