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> Schools are being pressured to remove books and cancel professors for spreading the “wrong” ideas. These sentiments are all too familiar to me, and to anyone

> Schools are being pressured to remove books and cancel professors for spreading the “wrong” ideas. These sentiments are all too familiar to me, and to anyone who has survived life in a dictatorship. The only answer is more freedom, more speech, not less. This is a good sentiment, but it's worth noting that the overwhelming majority of pressure to "cancel" books and academics is directed at the left by the right, regardless of what gets column inches and think-pieces.

oh_sigh 5y ago
Is it? Anecdotally, I see a lot of news about conservatives trying to "cancel" books in their kids libraries whose topics they don't like, but regarding professors, it seems like those getting cancelled are getting cancelled by the left, not the right.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dragontamer 5y ago
  https://www.texastribune.org/2010/03/22/sboe-removes-thomas-jefferson-blames-media/ https://www.texastribune.org/2010/03/22/sboe-removes-thomas-... https://archive.thinkprogress.org/texas-board-of-education-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks-477678f05e7f/ https://archive.thinkprogress.org/texas-board-of-education-c... Thomas Jefferson was successfully removed from all Texas schoolbooks, as one example of many. The Right is no stranger to censorship.
  - stevenicr 5y ago
    You got me to wonder, thanks for providing the links. I have seen stories recently about removing Jefferson from the public view / cancelling him, based upon far-left / progressive / anti-racist/slavery ideals (I think/assume) that are removing monuments around the country (and murals and building names, etc), not right-wing censorship, so I was quite curious. sadly some of the supporting links are 404 on the thinkprogress page you linked to. However reading the texas tribune article it says that Jefferson was not removed from all Texas schoolbooks, it says that he was removed from a list of 'revolutionary thinkers' - the other references were all left in. - So this is kind of a red herring thing? From the TexasTribune Article you linked: "the Colbert Report got the board's move technically correct, noting it removed Jefferson from a list of "revolutionary thinkers," which is exactly what the board did. Colbert simply didn't provide the context that Jefferson was mentioned elsewhere. (Colbert, of course, is comedy and can't be held to journalistic standards.) " ... "None of the news stories from the day in The Dallas Morning News, the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News (which share state coverage), the Austin American-Statesman, and The Texas Tribune (that's me) mentioned the Jefferson amendment, much less asserted he had been removed entirely from the curriculum. " Not that I disagree that "The Right is no stranger to censorship." - however this is not a good example for such, and perhaps the bigger debate should center around what tactics of censoring should be out of bounds, and example of such from different 'sides'. Although it becomes tougher to paint sides when we have to wonder if a twitter mob is a side? if none of the leaders of a side are advocating for thing X - and which leaders are actual leaders of a side, and which influencers are a thing, and if 'leaders' denounce an influencer, then does it really count for/against a 'side'.. much to consider with all this.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      Say that what you will, but the Texas School Board is highly conservative and makes these decisions all the time. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lawmaker-says-850-books-ranging-race-sexuality-cause-discomfort-rcna3953 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lawmaker-says-850... > Along with the letter, which was first obtained by The Texas Tribune, Krause appended the book list that includes well-known titles like the Pulitzer Prize-winning William Styron novel, “The Confessions of Nat Turner” and best-sellers that were turned into movies or television series, such as John Irving’s “The Cider House Rules,” Alan Moore’s dystopian “V For Vendetta,” and the graphic novel version of Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale.” Censorship, especially censorship applied to schools and education, is simply a tool of those in power to remain in power. In my experience, the conservative states seem to do it the most. The conservative states also force upon the textbook writers things like "Intelligent Design" or whatnot. ------- Book banning, removal of icons (Thomas Jefferson), etc. etc. Its all the same techniques. Conservatives simply ignore it when their peers do it, so you don't get to see those issues come up in conservative circles / conservative bubbles.
      - dlemire 5y ago
        The original claim was "the overwhelming majority of pressure to cancel books and academics is directed at the left by the right, regardless of what gets column inches and think-pieces." Many would say that the overwhelming majority of the academy is left of center. This makes it intuitive that if there is censorship of academics, then the recipients of the censorship would be people left of center. But I do not think it follows that the censors are on the right. I argue that most of the censorship on campus, be it people being uninvited or forced to resigned, comes from the academy itself. It is true that, quite possibly, the vast majority of the people being censored are on the left, but I think it is also true that the vast majority of the people censoring are also on the left. The right simply occupies very little room in the academy. It mostly exists outside of the academy. This is not to say that people on the right (mostly from outside of the academy) do not come in with censorious intentions... but my impression is that most universities are very well protected against external interventions. It is simply not the case that a business leader or a radio show host can easily censor a professor on campus. So if we are thinking about, say, college professors, I would say that we are mostly dealing with a left-left censorship. That is, the left is not this uniform block. Kathleen Stock is a leftist: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-59084446 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-59084446 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Stock Bret Weinstein is a leftist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bret_Weinstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bret_Weinstein Verushka Lieutenant-Duval is a leftist: https://arts.uottawa.ca/visualarts/people/lieutenant-duval-verushka https://arts.uottawa.ca/visualarts/people/lieutenant-duval-v... The people doing the cancelling were on the left.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Can we say that it's bad, no matter which side does it? And that both sides are doing it in different ways, and that's bad?
- amusedcyclist 5y ago
  Has any professor gotten fired for their views ? The worst thats happened is some people getting disinvited from conferences, hardly seems like censorship, just editorial disagreement
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Is firing the only way to get cancelled? What about being suspended? Being strong armed into "volunteering" into stepping back from teaching/speaking roles? Having career-advancing opportunities pass you by "for some reason"? Never getting a job in the first place because of your reputation?
    - amusedcyclist 5y ago
      Can you provide some examples of these happening ? Or even better some statistics ?
      - oh_sigh 5y ago
        I'm not really keeping track, but I can immediately recall the professor who spoke about a chinese filler word, the chinese native music professor who showed his class a critically acclaimed film starring Laurence Olivier...
- RickJWagner 5y ago
  The books I have seen would never have been allowed in past years. I saw an article this week about an NPR show featuring a book that was 'cancelled' from school libraries. NPR neglected to show the most egregeous illustrations, which included explicit sex scenes. We can't move the goalposts. Some books deserve to be kept out of reach of kids. These are the types I have seen in discussions. Nobody's on the right is trying to cancel anything that would've been acceptable in 2000.
salt-thrower 5y ago
Yeah, the Right complains about cancel culture while also trying to cancel any book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America. They are well-practiced at suppressing school materials that make them uncomfortable, and they've been doing it for decades. (And no, I'm not talking about Critical Race Theory; they have been suppressing even the most basic topics around race for a long time). Edit: I suppose it's different on college campuses vs. grade school. I do think college campuses are culturally and intellectually dominated by the modern Left, but it's rare that anyone actually gets fired for disagreeing. Jordan Peterson is probably the most famous right wing crank of a professor, and he still has a job. But perhaps other people have other examples.
- blub 5y ago
  Trying and failing. While on the other hand any dumbass with a twitter account can topple CEOs, established professionals, politicians, etc.
  - salt-thrower 5y ago
    Do you have any examples offhand where this was true? To me it seems that the Twitter mob has much less real-world impact than people think. Someone loses a particular gig one day, then gets hired somewhere else like nothing happened. Half the time it ends up being free publicity.
  - amusedcyclist 5y ago
    The anti CRT stuff just won the republicans an election in Virginia, what are your examples of random twitter accounts toppling CEOs?
- kadabra9 5y ago
  We can and should teach about the history of racism in America. We should not however be telling children to use an “oppression matrix” to group and divide one another by identity, teaching children that if they are white they are automatically racist, or teaching historical fabrications like the 1619 project.
blub 5y ago
Don’t know about most pressure, but when it comes to succeeding at cancelling, conservatives don’t seem to be able to cancel anything. What or who was cancelled by conservatives in the past let’s say 2-3 years?
- salt-thrower 5y ago
  If you zoom out you can find many more examples. A bit further back, look at the Right's behavior throughout the Bush years - the Dixie Chicks are a perfect example of someone opposing the Right from within their own culture and being summarily "cancelled" for it. More recently though, Kathy Griffin hasn't recovered from the Trump's severed head controversy. I'd also like to point out that the type of cancelling and thought suppression the Right does is much more insidious than the Twitter mob, which has the attention span of about a week. The way the Right targets school boards at the local and State level to suppress any curricula which makes them uncomfortable is a huge, widespread problem. Countless teachers in America are legally forced to teach demonstrably false narratives about racism and slavery, as well as to present evolution and Creationism as "equally valid theories." Comparing a comedian getting cancelled by the Left on Twitter (which rarely sticks; even Louis CK is doing gigs again) with the systematic miseducation of millions of kids based on demonstrably false narratives by the Right, I'd say the latter is much more harmful.
  - blub 5y ago
    This seems to be a global issue affecting many democratic countries, although the way Republicans likewise target education is probably unique to the US. An illiberal debate culture is taking root in the West, where certain positions may be publicly held only at great risk for one’s career. In academia, which is supposed to shape the thinking of future generations, this is nothing short of an inquisition. Read Anne Applebaum’a “The new puritans” for a detailed analysis of the situation in the US. Something similar is happening in the UK and Germany for example.
  - RickJWagner 5y ago
    Can you please cite "demonstrably false narratives by the Right"? I'm on the right side of the scale, I see this more from the left, TBH.
thoughtstheseus 5y ago
The “left” cancels everywhere. The “right” cancels in their own community. Big difference IMO. Pros and cons to both of those approaches but that’s how I see it.
- dlp211 5y ago
  People choosing to no longer listen to you because you have ideas that are currently considered reprehensible to the larger society is not being cancelled. That's called consequences for my actions. You are not entitled to consequence free speech & actions. This has never been a principle of free speech. Also, there is a massive difference between using government entities to ban books, and a bunch of people on Twitter saying we don't like you and what you said.
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    That's exactly one of the benefits of free speech. A kind of inverse of the "remain silent and be thought a fool, or speak up and remove all doubt" saying. Free and open discussion lets me know who's worthwhile listening to and who should be ignored.
    - dlp211 5y ago
      And after having spoken and been declared a fool, are we not allowed to say "no more"?
      - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
        You can say "no more" as much as you want. You can point out their foolishness. You can block their content from your life. It's all part of the same dance. Without some kind of legal exemption, however, you cannot prevent them from saying more (unless you own the platform, but that level of control is limited only to the platform that you own). Such is my understanding.
  - GoodbyeMrChips 5y ago
    Ummmm Our UK students unions are repeatedly preventing people speaking on campuses because they object to their views [1]. This IS 'cancel culture' and it is not healthy for our democracy. Whatever happend to "I disprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" ? [1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-is-cancel-culture-affecting-uk-universities-9zqlwn8ws https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-is-cancel-culture-aff...
systemvoltage 5y ago
You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right. Leftism in colleges and academia is so rotten beyond belief. I am down with History of Racism, naked and in all its gory details. But, let's not confuse that with how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID. Vast majority of this is a push from Left, not the Right. Edit: Australia passes mass surveillance laws: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28451066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28451066 . I can't reply because of limits, been too much on HN, I need to get off :-). It is indirectly linked to quanrantine and other measures Australian government is taking as a result of COVID. I would go a step further and argue that the world has become more authoritarian post-COVID in general. Edit: Those saying this is a naive and disingenious take - my observations are pretty much consistent with censorship is mostly from the left than right. Sure you can give examples of suppression from the Right (which I would oppose), but that doesn't really change my observation. Generally speaking, it is indisputedly obvious to me. Here is an economist article that goes in much more depth than single counter examples in the responses: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/09/04/the-threat-from-the-illiberal-left https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/09/04/the-threat-from...
- cool_dude85 5y ago
  Look at Bari Weiss, who started a right wing free speech university and cut her teeth trying to get her professors fired in college for supporting Palestine.
- yesenadam 5y ago
  > how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID I don't know what you're referring to here, could you give some links? Thanks. (Sydney here) edit: The link you added is about new laws that seem nothing to do with covid. What's the connection? (And you edited again. Maybe I'll wait until you stop doing that. In general, please reply to comments rather than repeatedly adding to your initial comment!)
- noelwelsh 5y ago
lhorie 5y ago
I think it's interesting phenomenon on its own that Kasparov is taking a fairly centrist stance here through a careful choice of words (cancelling books getting tends to be done by one side and cancelling professors is often done by the other side) and specifically calling out to promote more freedom regardless of what side you're on, but here in the comments people are looking at it from a bipartisan blame-shifting perspective. The parallel to my immediate life that comes to mind is when my kids are bickering about some inconsequential triviality and I say "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting". It must surely be an "important" topic for them that they feel the need to argue about it, but in the grander scheme of things, the resolution shouldn't come at a cost of a losing a core principle (i.e. aiming for resolution through vengeful means is not a productive course of action).
- watwut 5y ago
  > "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting" I stopped doing that when I realized this is systematically enabling aggressor. The kid that minds own business is on the defense and effectively forced always do what aggressor wants. Because if it protects or defends itself, adult steps in to tell him he is equally wrong.
  - ajuc 5y ago
    It's less harmful in family (because the assumption is that ultimately kids do love each other and won't do anything really bad). But I've mostly encountered this sentiment at school when somebody is bullied. And there it can be really bad, for a really long time. And that response is basically adults telling the victim "Nobody cares".
    - avmich 5y ago
      That's why in families it's an appropriate action, and in school isn't. In school there is a better (worse?) chance to meet somebody particularly nasty, who's bullying kids around. That should be answered by "authorities". In families it's less of the case, so GP logic is reasonable. I keep a high respect to Gary Kasparov. I however have a question regarding what he writes here - "It is the coordinated, coercive attempt to win a debate by ending debate—to punish, not to educate." Could it be that those who "cancel" just found a tool which is more effective than those before, something which they were missing in the "old status quo" of inter-class interactions? Could it be that the voices of those who do cancelling today weren't heard enough, so now they use this new opportunity to participate in the societal decisions?
glangdale 5y ago
Followup: I can't Google up the studies I read on this, as all the terms I can think of are either overloaded or heavily partisan ("cancel culture"), etc. But I have a strong recollection of seeing quantitative data on number of complaints brought against academics from outside with an attempt to figure out whether this was a left/right thing and seeing a tentative conclusion that the bulk of complaints about academics are that they are "too left". If this seems tendentious and unlikely, let's remember that Bari Weiss, now advocating for the University/grift that is University of Austin as a beacon of academic freedom, made her reputation attempting to get academics "cancelled" for having the wrong views on Israel. There are a lot of people with a vested interest in beating the drum to claim that universities are a mess of "cancel culture", but I'd be intrigued to read some actual statistics on this, rather than heavily publicized anecdotes. I tend to agree with the poster who complained this was some sort of blame-shifting ("he started it, mom!"). But the portrayal of normal academic life as being rife with endless left-wing cancel culture is a project being done for a reason. I don't like left-wing cancel culture either - and some of the leftiest people I know dislike it from a practical perspective (I know people personally teaching at elite institutions whose teaching has become unmanageable from constant weird student political demands). But any analysis of this that doesn't take into account the fact that universities are under pressure from the whole political spectrum is dumb. It's also worth noting that "right wing cancel culture" sometimes just manifests itself by quietly shutting whole departments in favour of, say, expanding the "trade school" elements of a university. Just nuke the whole history department and double the size of business... obviously an apolitical act, right?
- glangdale 5y ago
  Another good example (from a Nation article): "Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton, in a tizzy over the discontinuation by the estate of Dr. Seuss of six lesser-known books with racist content, had the audacity to gripe via social media that “the woke mob” is trying “to erase our history and cancel anyone who disagrees.” This is the same Tom Cotton who wrote a whole legislative act aimed at banning schools from teaching the 1619 Project, the initiative exploring how the United States was indelibly shaped by slavery—or what Cotton blithely describes as “the necessary evil upon which the union was built.” Cotton is not concerned about the censoring of history; he’s just picky about what parts of history get erased. What the Arkansas senator really means when he gets prickly about preserving “our history” is making sure the mythical white-supremacist recollection of American events is the only version schoolkids can read. Along with racist Dr. Seuss books, of course."
drewcoo 5y ago
The American "left" is soft right wing. These disputes are the right squabbling with the other right. Much of the silencing of the hard right, for "decorum" and such, is not recognized as censure by the soft right. At least the hard right is honest about banning speech. Because all of the focus is on soft and hard right wing cancellation, anything actually on the left is seen as extremist. Extremist speech can be silenced and, just like with the hard right, not acknowledged as being silenced.
- jedmeyers 5y ago
  > The American "left" is soft right wing. If by being "right wing" you mean strong authoritarianism and Mussolini-like fascism, then yes, American 'left' is right wing. However, if right wing for you are conservative values, like family, independence, free speech, personal responsibility, and "judging by the content of the character, not the color of the skin" then American left is nowhere near the soft right position on any of those things. They are not even close to center.
wyager 5y ago
Academia - a notoriously right-wing institution.
glangdale 5y ago
Some more examples: https://www.salon.com/2021/05/01/conservatives-claim-to-hate-cancel-culture--but-its-the-heart-of-the-right-wing-agenda/ https://www.salon.com/2021/05/01/conservatives-claim-to-hate... A right-wing think tank with strong influence on Idaho legislators produces this gem of a report: 'The report doesn't just call for eliminating individual courses, however. It calls for the elimination of five whole departments — Gender Studies, Sociology, Global Studies, Social Work and History — that it claims are infused with "social justice" ideology. (A sixth blacklisted department has since been added: Criminal Justice.) Eight other departments (later updated to nine) are on a watch list of sorts, judged to be "social justice in training."'
- temp8964 5y ago
  > You know who's not canceled? The endless parade of conservative pundits and politicians complaining about "cancel culture." You know who is canceled? George Floyd is canceled. Breonna Taylor is canceled. Ma'Khia Bryant is canceled. Andrew Brown Jr. is canceled. Lol. This is the first paragraph of the article. Is there any intellectual honesty in the discussion any more?
  - maccolgan 5y ago
    I hope you noticed it's from Salon.

oh_sigh 5y ago

Is it? Anecdotally, I see a lot of news about conservatives trying to "cancel" books in their kids libraries whose topics they don't like, but regarding professors, it seems like those getting cancelled are getting cancelled by the left, not the right.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dragontamer 5y ago
https://www.texastribune.org/2010/03/22/sboe-removes-thomas-jefferson-blames-media/ https://www.texastribune.org/2010/03/22/sboe-removes-thomas-... https://archive.thinkprogress.org/texas-board-of-education-cuts-thomas-jefferson-out-of-its-textbooks-477678f05e7f/ https://archive.thinkprogress.org/texas-board-of-education-c... Thomas Jefferson was successfully removed from all Texas schoolbooks, as one example of many. The Right is no stranger to censorship.
- stevenicr 5y ago
  You got me to wonder, thanks for providing the links. I have seen stories recently about removing Jefferson from the public view / cancelling him, based upon far-left / progressive / anti-racist/slavery ideals (I think/assume) that are removing monuments around the country (and murals and building names, etc), not right-wing censorship, so I was quite curious. sadly some of the supporting links are 404 on the thinkprogress page you linked to. However reading the texas tribune article it says that Jefferson was not removed from all Texas schoolbooks, it says that he was removed from a list of 'revolutionary thinkers' - the other references were all left in. - So this is kind of a red herring thing? From the TexasTribune Article you linked: "the Colbert Report got the board's move technically correct, noting it removed Jefferson from a list of "revolutionary thinkers," which is exactly what the board did. Colbert simply didn't provide the context that Jefferson was mentioned elsewhere. (Colbert, of course, is comedy and can't be held to journalistic standards.) " ... "None of the news stories from the day in The Dallas Morning News, the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News (which share state coverage), the Austin American-Statesman, and The Texas Tribune (that's me) mentioned the Jefferson amendment, much less asserted he had been removed entirely from the curriculum. " Not that I disagree that "The Right is no stranger to censorship." - however this is not a good example for such, and perhaps the bigger debate should center around what tactics of censoring should be out of bounds, and example of such from different 'sides'. Although it becomes tougher to paint sides when we have to wonder if a twitter mob is a side? if none of the leaders of a side are advocating for thing X - and which leaders are actual leaders of a side, and which influencers are a thing, and if 'leaders' denounce an influencer, then does it really count for/against a 'side'.. much to consider with all this.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Say that what you will, but the Texas School Board is highly conservative and makes these decisions all the time. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lawmaker-says-850-books-ranging-race-sexuality-cause-discomfort-rcna3953 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-lawmaker-says-850... > Along with the letter, which was first obtained by The Texas Tribune, Krause appended the book list that includes well-known titles like the Pulitzer Prize-winning William Styron novel, “The Confessions of Nat Turner” and best-sellers that were turned into movies or television series, such as John Irving’s “The Cider House Rules,” Alan Moore’s dystopian “V For Vendetta,” and the graphic novel version of Margaret Atwood’s “The Handmaid’s Tale.” Censorship, especially censorship applied to schools and education, is simply a tool of those in power to remain in power. In my experience, the conservative states seem to do it the most. The conservative states also force upon the textbook writers things like "Intelligent Design" or whatnot. ------- Book banning, removal of icons (Thomas Jefferson), etc. etc. Its all the same techniques. Conservatives simply ignore it when their peers do it, so you don't get to see those issues come up in conservative circles / conservative bubbles.
    - dlemire 5y ago
      The original claim was "the overwhelming majority of pressure to cancel books and academics is directed at the left by the right, regardless of what gets column inches and think-pieces." Many would say that the overwhelming majority of the academy is left of center. This makes it intuitive that if there is censorship of academics, then the recipients of the censorship would be people left of center. But I do not think it follows that the censors are on the right. I argue that most of the censorship on campus, be it people being uninvited or forced to resigned, comes from the academy itself. It is true that, quite possibly, the vast majority of the people being censored are on the left, but I think it is also true that the vast majority of the people censoring are also on the left. The right simply occupies very little room in the academy. It mostly exists outside of the academy. This is not to say that people on the right (mostly from outside of the academy) do not come in with censorious intentions... but my impression is that most universities are very well protected against external interventions. It is simply not the case that a business leader or a radio show host can easily censor a professor on campus. So if we are thinking about, say, college professors, I would say that we are mostly dealing with a left-left censorship. That is, the left is not this uniform block. Kathleen Stock is a leftist: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-59084446 https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sussex-59084446 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Stock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Stock Bret Weinstein is a leftist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bret_Weinstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bret_Weinstein Verushka Lieutenant-Duval is a leftist: https://arts.uottawa.ca/visualarts/people/lieutenant-duval-verushka https://arts.uottawa.ca/visualarts/people/lieutenant-duval-v... The people doing the cancelling were on the left.
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Can we say that it's bad, no matter which side does it? And that both sides are doing it in different ways, and that's bad?
amusedcyclist 5y ago
Has any professor gotten fired for their views ? The worst thats happened is some people getting disinvited from conferences, hardly seems like censorship, just editorial disagreement
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Is firing the only way to get cancelled? What about being suspended? Being strong armed into "volunteering" into stepping back from teaching/speaking roles? Having career-advancing opportunities pass you by "for some reason"? Never getting a job in the first place because of your reputation?
  - amusedcyclist 5y ago
    Can you provide some examples of these happening ? Or even better some statistics ?
    - oh_sigh 5y ago
      I'm not really keeping track, but I can immediately recall the professor who spoke about a chinese filler word, the chinese native music professor who showed his class a critically acclaimed film starring Laurence Olivier...
RickJWagner 5y ago
The books I have seen would never have been allowed in past years. I saw an article this week about an NPR show featuring a book that was 'cancelled' from school libraries. NPR neglected to show the most egregeous illustrations, which included explicit sex scenes. We can't move the goalposts. Some books deserve to be kept out of reach of kids. These are the types I have seen in discussions. Nobody's on the right is trying to cancel anything that would've been acceptable in 2000.

salt-thrower 5y ago

Yeah, the Right complains about cancel culture while also trying to cancel any book or curriculum that accurately describes the history of racism in America. They are well-practiced at suppressing school materials that make them uncomfortable, and they've been doing it for decades. (And no, I'm not talking about Critical Race Theory; they have been suppressing even the most basic topics around race for a long time). Edit: I suppose it's different on college campuses vs. grade school. I do think college campuses are culturally and intellectually dominated by the modern Left, but it's rare that anyone actually gets fired for disagreeing. Jordan Peterson is probably the most famous right wing crank of a professor, and he still has a job. But perhaps other people have other examples.

blub 5y ago
Trying and failing. While on the other hand any dumbass with a twitter account can topple CEOs, established professionals, politicians, etc.
- salt-thrower 5y ago
  Do you have any examples offhand where this was true? To me it seems that the Twitter mob has much less real-world impact than people think. Someone loses a particular gig one day, then gets hired somewhere else like nothing happened. Half the time it ends up being free publicity.
- amusedcyclist 5y ago
  The anti CRT stuff just won the republicans an election in Virginia, what are your examples of random twitter accounts toppling CEOs?
kadabra9 5y ago
We can and should teach about the history of racism in America. We should not however be telling children to use an “oppression matrix” to group and divide one another by identity, teaching children that if they are white they are automatically racist, or teaching historical fabrications like the 1619 project.

blub 5y ago

Don’t know about most pressure, but when it comes to succeeding at cancelling, conservatives don’t seem to be able to cancel anything. What or who was cancelled by conservatives in the past let’s say 2-3 years?

salt-thrower 5y ago
If you zoom out you can find many more examples. A bit further back, look at the Right's behavior throughout the Bush years - the Dixie Chicks are a perfect example of someone opposing the Right from within their own culture and being summarily "cancelled" for it. More recently though, Kathy Griffin hasn't recovered from the Trump's severed head controversy. I'd also like to point out that the type of cancelling and thought suppression the Right does is much more insidious than the Twitter mob, which has the attention span of about a week. The way the Right targets school boards at the local and State level to suppress any curricula which makes them uncomfortable is a huge, widespread problem. Countless teachers in America are legally forced to teach demonstrably false narratives about racism and slavery, as well as to present evolution and Creationism as "equally valid theories." Comparing a comedian getting cancelled by the Left on Twitter (which rarely sticks; even Louis CK is doing gigs again) with the systematic miseducation of millions of kids based on demonstrably false narratives by the Right, I'd say the latter is much more harmful.
- blub 5y ago
  This seems to be a global issue affecting many democratic countries, although the way Republicans likewise target education is probably unique to the US. An illiberal debate culture is taking root in the West, where certain positions may be publicly held only at great risk for one’s career. In academia, which is supposed to shape the thinking of future generations, this is nothing short of an inquisition. Read Anne Applebaum’a “The new puritans” for a detailed analysis of the situation in the US. Something similar is happening in the UK and Germany for example.
- RickJWagner 5y ago
  Can you please cite "demonstrably false narratives by the Right"? I'm on the right side of the scale, I see this more from the left, TBH.

thoughtstheseus 5y ago

The “left” cancels everywhere. The “right” cancels in their own community. Big difference IMO. Pros and cons to both of those approaches but that’s how I see it.

dlp211 5y ago
People choosing to no longer listen to you because you have ideas that are currently considered reprehensible to the larger society is not being cancelled. That's called consequences for my actions. You are not entitled to consequence free speech & actions. This has never been a principle of free speech. Also, there is a massive difference between using government entities to ban books, and a bunch of people on Twitter saying we don't like you and what you said.
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  That's exactly one of the benefits of free speech. A kind of inverse of the "remain silent and be thought a fool, or speak up and remove all doubt" saying. Free and open discussion lets me know who's worthwhile listening to and who should be ignored.
  - dlp211 5y ago
    And after having spoken and been declared a fool, are we not allowed to say "no more"?
    - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
      You can say "no more" as much as you want. You can point out their foolishness. You can block their content from your life. It's all part of the same dance. Without some kind of legal exemption, however, you cannot prevent them from saying more (unless you own the platform, but that level of control is limited only to the platform that you own). Such is my understanding.
- GoodbyeMrChips 5y ago
  Ummmm Our UK students unions are repeatedly preventing people speaking on campuses because they object to their views [1]. This IS 'cancel culture' and it is not healthy for our democracy. Whatever happend to "I disprove of what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" ? [1] https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-is-cancel-culture-affecting-uk-universities-9zqlwn8ws https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-is-cancel-culture-aff...

systemvoltage 5y ago

You may be right about one instance, but I've never seen anything but pro-freedom of speech from the right. Leftism in colleges and academia is so rotten beyond belief. I am down with History of Racism, naked and in all its gory details. But, let's not confuse that with how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID. Vast majority of this is a push from Left, not the Right. Edit: Australia passes mass surveillance laws: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28451066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28451066 . I can't reply because of limits, been too much on HN, I need to get off :-). It is indirectly linked to quanrantine and other measures Australian government is taking as a result of COVID. I would go a step further and argue that the world has become more authoritarian post-COVID in general. Edit: Those saying this is a naive and disingenious take - my observations are pretty much consistent with censorship is mostly from the left than right. Sure you can give examples of suppression from the Right (which I would oppose), but that doesn't really change my observation. Generally speaking, it is indisputedly obvious to me. Here is an economist article that goes in much more depth than single counter examples in the responses: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/09/04/the-threat-from-the-illiberal-left https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/09/04/the-threat-from...

cool_dude85 5y ago
Look at Bari Weiss, who started a right wing free speech university and cut her teeth trying to get her professors fired in college for supporting Palestine.
yesenadam 5y ago
> how fusion of Big Tech with Big Gov to move more and more towards totalitarianism - we've seen this happen in Australia in the name of COVID I don't know what you're referring to here, could you give some links? Thanks. (Sydney here) edit: The link you added is about new laws that seem nothing to do with covid. What's the connection? (And you edited again. Maybe I'll wait until you stop doing that. In general, please reply to comments rather than repeatedly adding to your initial comment!)
noelwelsh 5y ago

lhorie 5y ago

I think it's interesting phenomenon on its own that Kasparov is taking a fairly centrist stance here through a careful choice of words (cancelling books getting tends to be done by one side and cancelling professors is often done by the other side) and specifically calling out to promote more freedom regardless of what side you're on, but here in the comments people are looking at it from a bipartisan blame-shifting perspective. The parallel to my immediate life that comes to mind is when my kids are bickering about some inconsequential triviality and I say "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting". It must surely be an "important" topic for them that they feel the need to argue about it, but in the grander scheme of things, the resolution shouldn't come at a cost of a losing a core principle (i.e. aiming for resolution through vengeful means is not a productive course of action).

watwut 5y ago
> "I don't care who started it, I only care that you stop fighting" I stopped doing that when I realized this is systematically enabling aggressor. The kid that minds own business is on the defense and effectively forced always do what aggressor wants. Because if it protects or defends itself, adult steps in to tell him he is equally wrong.
- ajuc 5y ago
  It's less harmful in family (because the assumption is that ultimately kids do love each other and won't do anything really bad). But I've mostly encountered this sentiment at school when somebody is bullied. And there it can be really bad, for a really long time. And that response is basically adults telling the victim "Nobody cares".
  - avmich 5y ago
    That's why in families it's an appropriate action, and in school isn't. In school there is a better (worse?) chance to meet somebody particularly nasty, who's bullying kids around. That should be answered by "authorities". In families it's less of the case, so GP logic is reasonable. I keep a high respect to Gary Kasparov. I however have a question regarding what he writes here - "It is the coordinated, coercive attempt to win a debate by ending debate—to punish, not to educate." Could it be that those who "cancel" just found a tool which is more effective than those before, something which they were missing in the "old status quo" of inter-class interactions? Could it be that the voices of those who do cancelling today weren't heard enough, so now they use this new opportunity to participate in the societal decisions?

glangdale 5y ago

Followup: I can't Google up the studies I read on this, as all the terms I can think of are either overloaded or heavily partisan ("cancel culture"), etc. But I have a strong recollection of seeing quantitative data on number of complaints brought against academics from outside with an attempt to figure out whether this was a left/right thing and seeing a tentative conclusion that the bulk of complaints about academics are that they are "too left". If this seems tendentious and unlikely, let's remember that Bari Weiss, now advocating for the University/grift that is University of Austin as a beacon of academic freedom, made her reputation attempting to get academics "cancelled" for having the wrong views on Israel. There are a lot of people with a vested interest in beating the drum to claim that universities are a mess of "cancel culture", but I'd be intrigued to read some actual statistics on this, rather than heavily publicized anecdotes. I tend to agree with the poster who complained this was some sort of blame-shifting ("he started it, mom!"). But the portrayal of normal academic life as being rife with endless left-wing cancel culture is a project being done for a reason. I don't like left-wing cancel culture either - and some of the leftiest people I know dislike it from a practical perspective (I know people personally teaching at elite institutions whose teaching has become unmanageable from constant weird student political demands). But any analysis of this that doesn't take into account the fact that universities are under pressure from the whole political spectrum is dumb. It's also worth noting that "right wing cancel culture" sometimes just manifests itself by quietly shutting whole departments in favour of, say, expanding the "trade school" elements of a university. Just nuke the whole history department and double the size of business... obviously an apolitical act, right?

glangdale 5y ago
Another good example (from a Nation article): "Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton, in a tizzy over the discontinuation by the estate of Dr. Seuss of six lesser-known books with racist content, had the audacity to gripe via social media that “the woke mob” is trying “to erase our history and cancel anyone who disagrees.” This is the same Tom Cotton who wrote a whole legislative act aimed at banning schools from teaching the 1619 Project, the initiative exploring how the United States was indelibly shaped by slavery—or what Cotton blithely describes as “the necessary evil upon which the union was built.” Cotton is not concerned about the censoring of history; he’s just picky about what parts of history get erased. What the Arkansas senator really means when he gets prickly about preserving “our history” is making sure the mythical white-supremacist recollection of American events is the only version schoolkids can read. Along with racist Dr. Seuss books, of course."

drewcoo 5y ago

The American "left" is soft right wing. These disputes are the right squabbling with the other right. Much of the silencing of the hard right, for "decorum" and such, is not recognized as censure by the soft right. At least the hard right is honest about banning speech. Because all of the focus is on soft and hard right wing cancellation, anything actually on the left is seen as extremist. Extremist speech can be silenced and, just like with the hard right, not acknowledged as being silenced.

jedmeyers 5y ago
> The American "left" is soft right wing. If by being "right wing" you mean strong authoritarianism and Mussolini-like fascism, then yes, American 'left' is right wing. However, if right wing for you are conservative values, like family, independence, free speech, personal responsibility, and "judging by the content of the character, not the color of the skin" then American left is nowhere near the soft right position on any of those things. They are not even close to center.

wyager 5y ago

Academia - a notoriously right-wing institution.

glangdale 5y ago

Some more examples: https://www.salon.com/2021/05/01/conservatives-claim-to-hate-cancel-culture--but-its-the-heart-of-the-right-wing-agenda/ https://www.salon.com/2021/05/01/conservatives-claim-to-hate... A right-wing think tank with strong influence on Idaho legislators produces this gem of a report: 'The report doesn't just call for eliminating individual courses, however. It calls for the elimination of five whole departments — Gender Studies, Sociology, Global Studies, Social Work and History — that it claims are infused with "social justice" ideology. (A sixth blacklisted department has since been added: Criminal Justice.) Eight other departments (later updated to nine) are on a watch list of sorts, judged to be "social justice in training."'

temp8964 5y ago
> You know who's not canceled? The endless parade of conservative pundits and politicians complaining about "cancel culture." You know who is canceled? George Floyd is canceled. Breonna Taylor is canceled. Ma'Khia Bryant is canceled. Andrew Brown Jr. is canceled. Lol. This is the first paragraph of the article. Is there any intellectual honesty in the discussion any more?
- maccolgan 5y ago
  I hope you noticed it's from Salon.