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When one Mafia family turns another one in, they're doing it to get back at the other family--they're not doing it because they think that crime is a bad thing.

by Jiro 5y ago

When one Mafia family turns another one in, they're doing it to get back at the other family--they're not doing it because they think that crime is a bad thing. They're perfectly happy with crime, as long as they are the ones committing the crime. It's the exact same thing for censorship. The people who are complaining about Facebook censorship don't want to end censorship. It's just that they want to be the ones doing the censoring.

revolvingocelot 5y ago
Comparing Facebook to the cops and ideologically aligned groups of users to Mafia families is a strange analogy. Not sure why you chose it, except maybe to imply things. One of the things that your analogy implies is that speech is criminal. Many, including the actual cops, believe certain kinds of speech indeed are. But who is saying what?
- Jiro 5y ago
  No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal. We have one set of criminals (people complaining about Facebook) wanting to turn in another set of criminals (crackdown on Facebook censorship) so that they're the only criminals around (they want to be in control of the censorship). They don't actually want to stop crime (they don't actually want to stop censorship).
  - revolvingocelot 5y ago
    >No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal No, that's not right. Above, you likened cops to Facebook and groups of users to Mafia families who tattle on the crime of other families in order to stymie them. The Mafia does crime, while groups of users do speech; the cops catch and punish crime, while Facebook censors speech. The "only criminals around" won't be in control of the censorship unless you're suggesting that a group of users is going to unilaterally take over Facebook. ...Are you? Which one?
    - Jiro 5y ago
      The "other families" is Facebook. The crime of the "other families" is censorship. "Turning other families in to the police" is cracking down on Facebook censorship. "Turning other families into the police so they can be the only criminals around" is cracking down on Facebook censorship so they can be censors instead.
      - revolvingocelot 5y ago
        > The "other families" is Facebook. The crime of the "other families" is censorship. "Turning other families in to the police" is cracking down on Facebook censorship. "Turning other families into the police so they can be the only criminals around" is cracking down on Facebook censorship so they can be censors instead. So, let's see: >>>>>When one Mafia family turns another one in, When Facebook censorship is cracked down upon, >>>>>they're doing it to get back at the other family it's happening in order to get back at Facebook. ...what? What's "crime" again? What's "speech"? The "crime of the other families" being "censorship" elides the reality that Facebook is doing the censorship. I don't think you've really thought this through.
        Jiro 5y ago
        >The "crime of the other families" being "censorship" elides the reality that Facebook is doing the censorship. I The whole point of having a media blitz about Facebook censorship is to force a crackdown on Facebook censorship, to ensure that censorship is done as per the wishes of the complainers, rather than as per the wishes of current Facebook. There is no contradiction between "Facebook is doing the censorship" and "someone else wants to censor Facebook instead".
        revolvingocelot 5y ago
        >The whole point of having a media blitz about Facebook censorship is to force a crackdown on Facebook censorship, to ensure that censorship is done as per the wishes of the complainers, rather than as per the wishes of current Facebook. It's clear that you think that, but you're ignoring what's been written, by me, yourself, and TFA. "The police", which you've failed to define, seem to me in this flawed analogy to be a sort of avatar of active censorship, called down by various Mafia families. Except in real life, the only reason the police aren't arresting all members of all Mafia families is that they don't know the evidentiary extent of illegal Mafia activities. It is not, as you suggest, that the Mafia can call down the cops upon other Mafia families for whatever reason -- there's got to be some illegal activity that'll hold up in court. Facebook doesn't cave to pressure from groups, or some abstract list of rules, they do whatever they think will look best to observers and... and to a certain group of people. You suggest that all Mafia families are equally powerful, and push Facebook around. But is there a group from the list that you provided in the root comment, "the right [...] black people and LGBTQ", that is treated differently? One Mafia family has functionally unlimited power, and verifiably censors the two other groups worldwide. Which group is it? In fact, the worldwide censure of one of the "Mafia families", the LGBTQ+ Family, is plainly stated in the article. Can't be them!

by Jiro 5y ago

revolvingocelot 5y ago

Comparing Facebook to the cops and ideologically aligned groups of users to Mafia families is a strange analogy. Not sure why you chose it, except maybe to imply things. One of the things that your analogy implies is that speech is criminal. Many, including the actual cops, believe certain kinds of speech indeed are. But who is saying what?

Jiro 5y ago
No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal. We have one set of criminals (people complaining about Facebook) wanting to turn in another set of criminals (crackdown on Facebook censorship) so that they're the only criminals around (they want to be in control of the censorship). They don't actually want to stop crime (they don't actually want to stop censorship).
- revolvingocelot 5y ago
  >No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal No, that's not right. Above, you likened cops to Facebook and groups of users to Mafia families who tattle on the crime of other families in order to stymie them. The Mafia does crime, while groups of users do speech; the cops catch and punish crime, while Facebook censors speech. The "only criminals around" won't be in control of the censorship unless you're suggesting that a group of users is going to unilaterally take over Facebook. ...Are you? Which one?
  - Jiro 5y ago
    The "other families" is Facebook. The crime of the "other families" is censorship. "Turning other families in to the police" is cracking down on Facebook censorship. "Turning other families into the police so they can be the only criminals around" is cracking down on Facebook censorship so they can be censors instead.
    - revolvingocelot 5y ago
      > The "other families" is Facebook. The crime of the "other families" is censorship. "Turning other families in to the police" is cracking down on Facebook censorship. "Turning other families into the police so they can be the only criminals around" is cracking down on Facebook censorship so they can be censors instead. So, let's see: >>>>>When one Mafia family turns another one in, When Facebook censorship is cracked down upon, >>>>>they're doing it to get back at the other family it's happening in order to get back at Facebook. ...what? What's "crime" again? What's "speech"? The "crime of the other families" being "censorship" elides the reality that Facebook is doing the censorship. I don't think you've really thought this through.
      - Jiro 5y ago
        >The "crime of the other families" being "censorship" elides the reality that Facebook is doing the censorship. I The whole point of having a media blitz about Facebook censorship is to force a crackdown on Facebook censorship, to ensure that censorship is done as per the wishes of the complainers, rather than as per the wishes of current Facebook. There is no contradiction between "Facebook is doing the censorship" and "someone else wants to censor Facebook instead".
        revolvingocelot 5y ago
        >The whole point of having a media blitz about Facebook censorship is to force a crackdown on Facebook censorship, to ensure that censorship is done as per the wishes of the complainers, rather than as per the wishes of current Facebook. It's clear that you think that, but you're ignoring what's been written, by me, yourself, and TFA. "The police", which you've failed to define, seem to me in this flawed analogy to be a sort of avatar of active censorship, called down by various Mafia families. Except in real life, the only reason the police aren't arresting all members of all Mafia families is that they don't know the evidentiary extent of illegal Mafia activities. It is not, as you suggest, that the Mafia can call down the cops upon other Mafia families for whatever reason -- there's got to be some illegal activity that'll hold up in court. Facebook doesn't cave to pressure from groups, or some abstract list of rules, they do whatever they think will look best to observers and... and to a certain group of people. You suggest that all Mafia families are equally powerful, and push Facebook around. But is there a group from the list that you provided in the root comment, "the right [...] black people and LGBTQ", that is treated differently? One Mafia family has functionally unlimited power, and verifiably censors the two other groups worldwide. Which group is it? In fact, the worldwide censure of one of the "Mafia families", the LGBTQ+ Family, is plainly stated in the article. Can't be them!