6 ms·

This is just another case of "police cracks down on Mafia" when it's one section of the Mafia turning in another disfavored section of the Mafia to the police.

by Jiro 5y ago

This is just another case of "police cracks down on Mafia" when it's one section of the Mafia turning in another disfavored section of the Mafia to the police. I've yet to see a recent complaint about inconsistent and discriminatory Facebook censorship say that Facebook should just stop censoring. It's always "Facebook isn't doing enough to censor against the right and in favor of black people and LGBTQ".

ben_w 5y ago
I see plenty of right wing politicians and commentators (and also, though not recently, my extremely left wing ex) complaining that it was censoring their political views unfairly. Very recently, I have even seen some call for an end to algorithmic timelines, though ironically I can’t find a link.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  Here's an article about the "Filter Bubble Transparency Act" which intends "that internet platforms give users the option to engage with a platform without being manipulated by algorithms driven by user-specific data": https://www.makeuseof.com/filter-bubble-transparency-act-explained/ https://www.makeuseof.com/filter-bubble-transparency-act-exp...
revolvingocelot 5y ago
>the right [...] black people and LGBTQ A clever elision of what each group mentioned is actually saying... Which one is most like the Mafia, I wonder?
- Jiro 5y ago
  When one Mafia family turns another one in, they're doing it to get back at the other family--they're not doing it because they think that crime is a bad thing. They're perfectly happy with crime, as long as they are the ones committing the crime. It's the exact same thing for censorship. The people who are complaining about Facebook censorship don't want to end censorship. It's just that they want to be the ones doing the censoring.
  - revolvingocelot 5y ago
    Comparing Facebook to the cops and ideologically aligned groups of users to Mafia families is a strange analogy. Not sure why you chose it, except maybe to imply things. One of the things that your analogy implies is that speech is criminal. Many, including the actual cops, believe certain kinds of speech indeed are. But who is saying what?
    - Jiro 5y ago
      No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal. We have one set of criminals (people complaining about Facebook) wanting to turn in another set of criminals (crackdown on Facebook censorship) so that they're the only criminals around (they want to be in control of the censorship). They don't actually want to stop crime (they don't actually want to stop censorship).
      - revolvingocelot 5y ago
        >No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal No, that's not right. Above, you likened cops to Facebook and groups of users to Mafia families who tattle on the crime of other families in order to stymie them. The Mafia does crime, while groups of users do speech; the cops catch and punish crime, while Facebook censors speech. The "only criminals around" won't be in control of the censorship unless you're suggesting that a group of users is going to unilaterally take over Facebook. ...Are you? Which one?
        Jiro 5y ago
        The "other families" is Facebook. The crime of the "other families" is censorship. "Turning other families in to the police" is cracking down on Facebook censorship. "Turning other families into the police so they can be the only criminals around" is cracking down on Facebook censorship so they can be censors instead.
        revolvingocelot 5y ago
fennecfoxen 5y ago
If this is true in your experience, you ought broaden your horizons on the topic. If nothing else, there are certainly plenty of complaints about facially-reasonable-ish policies being implemented in an insane and incoherent manner — like when Facebook or Google take down "extremist content," but it's like video archives of extremists intended to be used to fight war crimes and bring their perpetrators to justice. e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/facebook-algorithms-are-making-it-harder/588931/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/facebook-a... (Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes / Algorithms that take down “terrorist” videos could hamstring efforts to bring human-rights abusers to justice.) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-socialmedia-rights-trfn/lost-memories-war-crimes-evidence-threatened-by-ai-moderation-idUSKBN23Q2TO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-socialmedia-rights... ("'Lost memories': War crimes evidence threatened by AI moderation") https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/25/21664951/facebook-ban-stolen-artifacts-aids-criminal-organizations https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/25/21664951/facebook-ban-st... ("Facebook is deleting evidence of war crimes, researchers say / A ban on selling stolen artifacts is having unintended consequences)
- Jiro 5y ago
  Of course Facebook censorship is insane and incoherent. But pretty much no widely publicized complaint about these ever says "Facebook censorship is insane and incoherent, so Facebook should stop censoring". They just want to be the ones in control of the censorship instead.
  - dale_glass 5y ago
    If you don't moderate content, everything turns into 4chan. And for those two want that, 4chan already exists.
  - elashri 5y ago
    One example of allowing everything is the mass murder of New Zealand mosque that was live streamed on Facebook, do you say that something like that should be allowed and Facebook cannot censor any content?

by Jiro 5y ago

ben_w 5y ago

I see plenty of right wing politicians and commentators (and also, though not recently, my extremely left wing ex) complaining that it was censoring their political views unfairly. Very recently, I have even seen some call for an end to algorithmic timelines, though ironically I can’t find a link.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dane-pgp 5y ago
Here's an article about the "Filter Bubble Transparency Act" which intends "that internet platforms give users the option to engage with a platform without being manipulated by algorithms driven by user-specific data": https://www.makeuseof.com/filter-bubble-transparency-act-explained/ https://www.makeuseof.com/filter-bubble-transparency-act-exp...

revolvingocelot 5y ago

>the right [...] black people and LGBTQ A clever elision of what each group mentioned is actually saying... Which one is most like the Mafia, I wonder?

Jiro 5y ago
When one Mafia family turns another one in, they're doing it to get back at the other family--they're not doing it because they think that crime is a bad thing. They're perfectly happy with crime, as long as they are the ones committing the crime. It's the exact same thing for censorship. The people who are complaining about Facebook censorship don't want to end censorship. It's just that they want to be the ones doing the censoring.
- revolvingocelot 5y ago
  Comparing Facebook to the cops and ideologically aligned groups of users to Mafia families is a strange analogy. Not sure why you chose it, except maybe to imply things. One of the things that your analogy implies is that speech is criminal. Many, including the actual cops, believe certain kinds of speech indeed are. But who is saying what?
  - Jiro 5y ago
    No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal. We have one set of criminals (people complaining about Facebook) wanting to turn in another set of criminals (crackdown on Facebook censorship) so that they're the only criminals around (they want to be in control of the censorship). They don't actually want to stop crime (they don't actually want to stop censorship).
    - revolvingocelot 5y ago
      >No, the analogy is that censorship is criminal No, that's not right. Above, you likened cops to Facebook and groups of users to Mafia families who tattle on the crime of other families in order to stymie them. The Mafia does crime, while groups of users do speech; the cops catch and punish crime, while Facebook censors speech. The "only criminals around" won't be in control of the censorship unless you're suggesting that a group of users is going to unilaterally take over Facebook. ...Are you? Which one?
      - Jiro 5y ago
        The "other families" is Facebook. The crime of the "other families" is censorship. "Turning other families in to the police" is cracking down on Facebook censorship. "Turning other families into the police so they can be the only criminals around" is cracking down on Facebook censorship so they can be censors instead.
        revolvingocelot 5y ago

fennecfoxen 5y ago

If this is true in your experience, you ought broaden your horizons on the topic. If nothing else, there are certainly plenty of complaints about facially-reasonable-ish policies being implemented in an insane and incoherent manner — like when Facebook or Google take down "extremist content," but it's like video archives of extremists intended to be used to fight war crimes and bring their perpetrators to justice. e.g. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/facebook-algorithms-are-making-it-harder/588931/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/05/facebook-a... (Tech Companies Are Deleting Evidence of War Crimes / Algorithms that take down “terrorist” videos could hamstring efforts to bring human-rights abusers to justice.) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-socialmedia-rights-trfn/lost-memories-war-crimes-evidence-threatened-by-ai-moderation-idUSKBN23Q2TO https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-socialmedia-rights... ("'Lost memories': War crimes evidence threatened by AI moderation") https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/25/21664951/facebook-ban-stolen-artifacts-aids-criminal-organizations https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/25/21664951/facebook-ban-st... ("Facebook is deleting evidence of war crimes, researchers say / A ban on selling stolen artifacts is having unintended consequences)

Jiro 5y ago
Of course Facebook censorship is insane and incoherent. But pretty much no widely publicized complaint about these ever says "Facebook censorship is insane and incoherent, so Facebook should stop censoring". They just want to be the ones in control of the censorship instead.
- dale_glass 5y ago
  If you don't moderate content, everything turns into 4chan. And for those two want that, 4chan already exists.
- elashri 5y ago
  One example of allowing everything is the mass murder of New Zealand mosque that was live streamed on Facebook, do you say that something like that should be allowed and Facebook cannot censor any content?