6 ms·

This has been said ad infinitum. My experience is that Windows works, but very poorly. It is slow, hangs, steals my data and treats me like an abusive parent tr

This has been said ad infinitum. My experience is that Windows works, but very poorly. It is slow, hangs, steals my data and treats me like an abusive parent treats a toddler. But for me, Linux doesn't work. Or maybe it works 90%. Something's always broken, and a different thing is broken with each update. It requires constant tinkering. One flawless and amazing experience I had was working on Linux at a medium-sized tech firm, which had a dedicated sysadmin team who knew what they were doing. As a decent Linux user I could never maintain anything like that level of service on personal machines. I think it's quite telling that so few vendors sell you hardware+Linux+promise of it all working well. There are quite a few who will sell you hardware and pinky promise you can install Linux on it yourself, but that's not the same.

cardanome 5y ago
What exactly does not work? What Distro were you using? Serious question because my experience is that I install Linux Mint and everything just works. Updates never break anything. Why should they? The only arguable pain point is maybe graphics drivers but honestly installing proprietary ones is just a few clicks these days. Plus you don't need them for office work anyway. (Maybe also some power saving features on certain lesser known laptops? As a ThinkPad user I always enjoyed great support.)
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I recently installed Ubuntu on an old laptop. Everything worked for a week. Then the touchpad stopped working. There are many pages telling you how to debug a touchpad. I tried various incantations of installing, reinstalling, uninstalling drivers, one set or another. I ran some special commands to capture messages coming out of the touchpad - showing it actually, at some level, worked. Just didn't move the mouse. Nothing helped. That it's even a thing to debug a touchpad is precisely what's "wrong" with Linux. Windows, crapware that it is, for me had never this kind of 1->0 failures. It's just all meh.
  - rightbyte 5y ago
    I believe the hardware stores state internally somehow. I dual booted a laptop Ubuntu/Windows for a while. And if a closed down Windows with the power cable connected then the NVidia card would not work in Ubuntu. The touch pad probably need some magic numbers to reset some state.
- 9dev 5y ago
  This is the standard reaction I’ve heard so often from experienced Linux users, but you tend to forget all the trouble you’re able to solve because you know what you’re doing. Consider proprietary graphics drivers - ordinary people won’t even know why that is an issue, where to look if the display flickers, or what even drivers are. And that’s just the start of it… I’ve never had a Linux box that didn’t require me to open a terminal to fix something after a while. Updates definitely break something sometimes, because the people publishing them are humans that make mistakes. Why shouldn’t they? If you’re using a Thinkpad, you’re well of. Try a cheaper machine, and be surprised by exciting tinkering opportunities like fast battery drainage, issues connecting external displays, external printers not being recognised, or Bluetooth speakers not playing audio. We can fix it, my mom cannot.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    None of that matters in this case, since the users don't purchase or administer their computers. The IT department selects appropriate configurations that support the software they need. My university has no problem supporting a Linux laptop and desktop, and Germany's administration would be doing something similar.
    - 9dev 5y ago
      I'm not arguing that, but I was specifically responding to parent which referred to their own, personal Linux setup.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    > Consider proprietary graphics drivers - ordinary people won’t even know why that is an issue, where to look if the display flickers, or what even drivers are. Why would an employee that wasn't part of IT procurement ever be thinking about that? If you're telling me that it's impossible to hire a single person for procurement who can figure out whether your machines will run on the OS your organization has chosen, I'm going to insist that's not true. > I’ve never had a Linux box that didn’t require me to open a terminal to fix something after a while. I'm going to make the guess that you never run a stable distribution for your own personal desktop, like Debian stable, for example. For some reason, most individuals pretend to need a bleeding edge desktop. Organizations don't. Debian Stable is as fragile as a mountain.
- stelonix 5y ago
  I'm not the parent but I'll answer as a 9 years Linux user and advocate. Things just break with updates, or sometimes do not work. I'm on Ubuntu 20 right now and Firefox can't detect the microphone on some websites like FB or instagram, but works just fine on Chrome. On my home computer running Arch and similar setup Firefox detects the mic just fine. It's brittle, it feels like it's duct tapes all the way down and the breakage is mostly because not many foss projects really care about backwards compatibility. However, on topic, the awful mess that is the Linux desktop experience does not matter since we're talking about public servants and not home use.
  - cardanome 5y ago
    Your example sounds more like typical Firefox to me. While I use it as my daily driver, video calls should always be done in Chrome in my experience. (Yeah, I know that is not exactly a point in favor of free software but it is what it is.) Honestly at least relative to the general mood of the software industry I wouldn't say that foss projects don't care about backwards compatibility. The kernel is famous for caring a lot about it. The Debian project is quite known for being relatively conservative. Unfortunately Ubuntu is known for experimenting on its users but thank god nobody is forced to use that.
    - BlueTemplar 5y ago
      Why are you doing video calls in a browser in the first place ?
      - com2kid 5y ago
        Because that is how it is done now days? Browsers have supported video calls for years now. Heck there are plenty of Show HN posts about the latest in browser virtual chat rooms with full video and audio.
      - cardanome 5y ago
        Did I use the wrong preposition or are you telling me to always use proper apps for it? I don't see the issue, yes Teams is crap in Browser but most WebRTC based solutions work fine, at least in Chrome. Plus if I can avoid installing proprietary Software that is always a plus.
- stonemetal12 5y ago
  Ubuntu, The system will only display 4 letters per line. https://askubuntu.com/questions/1330100/only-the-first-four-letters-are-visible-on-ubuntu-20-04-lts https://askubuntu.com/questions/1330100/only-the-first-four-... As one recent example. For me MS works much better than Ubuntu on a day to day basis. I would much prefer a Linux, but I want one that gets out of the way and allows me to do work instead of hand hold it.
- aembleton 5y ago
  Fingerprint reader does not work in Manjaro.
  - nick__m 5y ago
    If you have "supported" hardware, the Arch wiki probably have a solution to that problem: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Fprint https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Fprint
    - aembleton 5y ago
      Yep, I've looked at that and my hardware isn't supported.
2143 5y ago
You're all talking past each other! It depends on the machines. I'm biased towards Linux. I also really like Macs. I've had Linux machines that just works. Buuuuut, before getting my hands on those machines I researched online and ensured that Linux works well on those. In my personal experience, Dell (Inspiron/Vostro/Latitude/XPS) and some ThinkPads usually work fine. On such machines, everything works out of the box. I've had to do nothing special on those machines to make anything work. Things worked right from the first install. Now, there are definitely plenty of machines out there where Linux DOES NOT work well out of the box. So, I guess Windows gets a brownie point for that — you don't have to investigate upfront if Windows is going you work on a given consumer machine; it probably works on more consumer computers than Linux. (However, there's more to it than this if you think about how this situation came about; I don't want to open that can of worms here). My hope is that, if enough people choose to run Linux, then manufacturers might be incentivised to support Linux better so that even more people would choose Linux, and so on. I refuse to run Windows because: • I honestly just really like Linux, BSD, and unixy environments. • Windows had a clunky developer experience the last time I tried it (a decade ago); I hear it has improved, but frankly I don't care. • Statements like "Linux is cancer" from you-know-who never sat well with me. I suspect they're still evil. I also refrain from running Cinnamon because that reminds me of Windows from long long ago, and I'd rather not be reminded of Windows. Having said all that, I think LibreOffice is inferior to MS Office. It was the one Microsoft product that I actually liked.
trulyme 5y ago
Interesting how our experience with Linux is exactly the opposite. I love the fact that once I set it up, it simply works (Ubuntu). Flawless updates. No changes, no endless forced updates + restarts, no ads, no tracking, and most of all, capable terminals (no, git bash and wsl on Windows can't compete). I am saying that from a position of someone who is on Linux for 15 years now and works on Windows at $JOB when requested. Windows XP weren't even that bad, but Win10... awful.

cardanome 5y ago

What exactly does not work? What Distro were you using? Serious question because my experience is that I install Linux Mint and everything just works. Updates never break anything. Why should they? The only arguable pain point is maybe graphics drivers but honestly installing proprietary ones is just a few clicks these days. Plus you don't need them for office work anyway. (Maybe also some power saving features on certain lesser known laptops? As a ThinkPad user I always enjoyed great support.)

rich_sasha 5y ago
I recently installed Ubuntu on an old laptop. Everything worked for a week. Then the touchpad stopped working. There are many pages telling you how to debug a touchpad. I tried various incantations of installing, reinstalling, uninstalling drivers, one set or another. I ran some special commands to capture messages coming out of the touchpad - showing it actually, at some level, worked. Just didn't move the mouse. Nothing helped. That it's even a thing to debug a touchpad is precisely what's "wrong" with Linux. Windows, crapware that it is, for me had never this kind of 1->0 failures. It's just all meh.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  I believe the hardware stores state internally somehow. I dual booted a laptop Ubuntu/Windows for a while. And if a closed down Windows with the power cable connected then the NVidia card would not work in Ubuntu. The touch pad probably need some magic numbers to reset some state.
9dev 5y ago
This is the standard reaction I’ve heard so often from experienced Linux users, but you tend to forget all the trouble you’re able to solve because you know what you’re doing. Consider proprietary graphics drivers - ordinary people won’t even know why that is an issue, where to look if the display flickers, or what even drivers are. And that’s just the start of it… I’ve never had a Linux box that didn’t require me to open a terminal to fix something after a while. Updates definitely break something sometimes, because the people publishing them are humans that make mistakes. Why shouldn’t they? If you’re using a Thinkpad, you’re well of. Try a cheaper machine, and be surprised by exciting tinkering opportunities like fast battery drainage, issues connecting external displays, external printers not being recognised, or Bluetooth speakers not playing audio. We can fix it, my mom cannot.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  None of that matters in this case, since the users don't purchase or administer their computers. The IT department selects appropriate configurations that support the software they need. My university has no problem supporting a Linux laptop and desktop, and Germany's administration would be doing something similar.
  - 9dev 5y ago
    I'm not arguing that, but I was specifically responding to parent which referred to their own, personal Linux setup.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  > Consider proprietary graphics drivers - ordinary people won’t even know why that is an issue, where to look if the display flickers, or what even drivers are. Why would an employee that wasn't part of IT procurement ever be thinking about that? If you're telling me that it's impossible to hire a single person for procurement who can figure out whether your machines will run on the OS your organization has chosen, I'm going to insist that's not true. > I’ve never had a Linux box that didn’t require me to open a terminal to fix something after a while. I'm going to make the guess that you never run a stable distribution for your own personal desktop, like Debian stable, for example. For some reason, most individuals pretend to need a bleeding edge desktop. Organizations don't. Debian Stable is as fragile as a mountain.
stelonix 5y ago
I'm not the parent but I'll answer as a 9 years Linux user and advocate. Things just break with updates, or sometimes do not work. I'm on Ubuntu 20 right now and Firefox can't detect the microphone on some websites like FB or instagram, but works just fine on Chrome. On my home computer running Arch and similar setup Firefox detects the mic just fine. It's brittle, it feels like it's duct tapes all the way down and the breakage is mostly because not many foss projects really care about backwards compatibility. However, on topic, the awful mess that is the Linux desktop experience does not matter since we're talking about public servants and not home use.
- cardanome 5y ago
  Your example sounds more like typical Firefox to me. While I use it as my daily driver, video calls should always be done in Chrome in my experience. (Yeah, I know that is not exactly a point in favor of free software but it is what it is.) Honestly at least relative to the general mood of the software industry I wouldn't say that foss projects don't care about backwards compatibility. The kernel is famous for caring a lot about it. The Debian project is quite known for being relatively conservative. Unfortunately Ubuntu is known for experimenting on its users but thank god nobody is forced to use that.
  - BlueTemplar 5y ago
    Why are you doing video calls in a browser in the first place ?
    - com2kid 5y ago
      Because that is how it is done now days? Browsers have supported video calls for years now. Heck there are plenty of Show HN posts about the latest in browser virtual chat rooms with full video and audio.
    - cardanome 5y ago
      Did I use the wrong preposition or are you telling me to always use proper apps for it? I don't see the issue, yes Teams is crap in Browser but most WebRTC based solutions work fine, at least in Chrome. Plus if I can avoid installing proprietary Software that is always a plus.
stonemetal12 5y ago
Ubuntu, The system will only display 4 letters per line. https://askubuntu.com/questions/1330100/only-the-first-four-letters-are-visible-on-ubuntu-20-04-lts https://askubuntu.com/questions/1330100/only-the-first-four-... As one recent example. For me MS works much better than Ubuntu on a day to day basis. I would much prefer a Linux, but I want one that gets out of the way and allows me to do work instead of hand hold it.
aembleton 5y ago
Fingerprint reader does not work in Manjaro.
- nick__m 5y ago
  If you have "supported" hardware, the Arch wiki probably have a solution to that problem: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Fprint https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Fprint
  - aembleton 5y ago
    Yep, I've looked at that and my hardware isn't supported.

2143 5y ago

You're all talking past each other! It depends on the machines. I'm biased towards Linux. I also really like Macs. I've had Linux machines that just works. Buuuuut, before getting my hands on those machines I researched online and ensured that Linux works well on those. In my personal experience, Dell (Inspiron/Vostro/Latitude/XPS) and some ThinkPads usually work fine. On such machines, everything works out of the box. I've had to do nothing special on those machines to make anything work. Things worked right from the first install. Now, there are definitely plenty of machines out there where Linux DOES NOT work well out of the box. So, I guess Windows gets a brownie point for that — you don't have to investigate upfront if Windows is going you work on a given consumer machine; it probably works on more consumer computers than Linux. (However, there's more to it than this if you think about how this situation came about; I don't want to open that can of worms here). My hope is that, if enough people choose to run Linux, then manufacturers might be incentivised to support Linux better so that even more people would choose Linux, and so on. I refuse to run Windows because: • I honestly just really like Linux, BSD, and unixy environments. • Windows had a clunky developer experience the last time I tried it (a decade ago); I hear it has improved, but frankly I don't care. • Statements like "Linux is cancer" from you-know-who never sat well with me. I suspect they're still evil. I also refrain from running Cinnamon because that reminds me of Windows from long long ago, and I'd rather not be reminded of Windows. Having said all that, I think LibreOffice is inferior to MS Office. It was the one Microsoft product that I actually liked.

trulyme 5y ago

Interesting how our experience with Linux is exactly the opposite. I love the fact that once I set it up, it simply works (Ubuntu). Flawless updates. No changes, no endless forced updates + restarts, no ads, no tracking, and most of all, capable terminals (no, git bash and wsl on Windows can't compete). I am saying that from a position of someone who is on Linux for 15 years now and works on Windows at $JOB when requested. Windows XP weren't even that bad, but Win10... awful.