3 ms·

I'm still not entirely sure on the point of IRCv3, it seems to me that the main draw of IRC in current times is the simplicity of the protocol, losing that by a

I'm still not entirely sure on the point of IRCv3, it seems to me that the main draw of IRC in current times is the simplicity of the protocol, losing that by adding a whole bunch of new features, I don't see what niche IRC fills anymore.

nicolaslem 5y ago
Almost everything in IRCv3 is opt-in. If you want to use netcat to access a modern IRC server you can still do it and it looks just the same as it looked in the 90s.
progval 5y ago
Minimalist and full-featured implementations can coexist and talk to each other, as all specs are designed with graceful degradation in mind. Minimalist implementations can also cherry-pick newer features they want. For example, this IRC client explicitly says it in its "non-features" section: https://git.causal.agency/catgirl/about/ https://git.causal.agency/catgirl/about/
Macha 5y ago
If you read the XMPP discussion from the other day, one of the points highlighted was that there's no common spec for modern features so it's really hard to know if a given client<->server combo supports newer features. IRCv3 is the same idea. Some of it is stuff that's been around for ages so clients just assume it's there like SASL and capability negotiation - these are much more specifying what servers/clients already do, IRCv3 is not adding to complexity here because the complexity already exists. The second is more green field projects, like the stuff to allow a more web client friendly protocol compared to IRC currently by defining how to use web sockets avoiding the need for stuff like IRCCloud or Mibbit proxying their user's connections. Or chathistory to make it more mobile/not permanently attached friendly.
that_guy_iain 5y ago
Slack, Teams, and Discord are proof that there are serious demands to have a chat system. It's just IRC as it is, is clearly outdated for the current market. It's niche is as simple as it was way back when, you can create your own chat server for your community. Instead of having to use Discord, Slack, etc you can create your own and control it fully. While it's possible to do that to this day it's not to the same level it was back in the late 90s for example.
- path411 5y ago
  Damn, this makes me drool over an alternate universe where discord, slack, and teams are just competing irc clients. Unfortunately I can't imagine anything like that ever happening
  - handrous 5y ago
    Won't happen until grabbing everyone's data isn't a top priority for tech companies. They don't want you to be able to do stuff that they can't observe. IOW we're stuck with a decaying protocol ecosystem—for messaging, and everything else—until we outlaw surveillance capitalism, which we probably won't do. Email wouldn't be able to take off if it were invented today, because it lets you use it without one company seeing everything. The state of things is really bad. It's a drag on productivity, with endless wheel-reinventing and deliberately-bad interoperability.
    - orf 5y ago
      I mean IRC doesn’t even support multiline messages let alone any of the other things that are table stakes for an actually worthwhile chat experience. The success of slack and the failure of IRC has nothing to do with surveillance capitalism.

nicolaslem 5y ago

Almost everything in IRCv3 is opt-in. If you want to use netcat to access a modern IRC server you can still do it and it looks just the same as it looked in the 90s.

progval 5y ago

Minimalist and full-featured implementations can coexist and talk to each other, as all specs are designed with graceful degradation in mind. Minimalist implementations can also cherry-pick newer features they want. For example, this IRC client explicitly says it in its "non-features" section: https://git.causal.agency/catgirl/about/ https://git.causal.agency/catgirl/about/

Macha 5y ago

If you read the XMPP discussion from the other day, one of the points highlighted was that there's no common spec for modern features so it's really hard to know if a given client<->server combo supports newer features. IRCv3 is the same idea. Some of it is stuff that's been around for ages so clients just assume it's there like SASL and capability negotiation - these are much more specifying what servers/clients already do, IRCv3 is not adding to complexity here because the complexity already exists. The second is more green field projects, like the stuff to allow a more web client friendly protocol compared to IRC currently by defining how to use web sockets avoiding the need for stuff like IRCCloud or Mibbit proxying their user's connections. Or chathistory to make it more mobile/not permanently attached friendly.

that_guy_iain 5y ago

Slack, Teams, and Discord are proof that there are serious demands to have a chat system. It's just IRC as it is, is clearly outdated for the current market. It's niche is as simple as it was way back when, you can create your own chat server for your community. Instead of having to use Discord, Slack, etc you can create your own and control it fully. While it's possible to do that to this day it's not to the same level it was back in the late 90s for example.

path411 5y ago
Damn, this makes me drool over an alternate universe where discord, slack, and teams are just competing irc clients. Unfortunately I can't imagine anything like that ever happening
- handrous 5y ago
  Won't happen until grabbing everyone's data isn't a top priority for tech companies. They don't want you to be able to do stuff that they can't observe. IOW we're stuck with a decaying protocol ecosystem—for messaging, and everything else—until we outlaw surveillance capitalism, which we probably won't do. Email wouldn't be able to take off if it were invented today, because it lets you use it without one company seeing everything. The state of things is really bad. It's a drag on productivity, with endless wheel-reinventing and deliberately-bad interoperability.
  - orf 5y ago
    I mean IRC doesn’t even support multiline messages let alone any of the other things that are table stakes for an actually worthwhile chat experience. The success of slack and the failure of IRC has nothing to do with surveillance capitalism.