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Vote by mail is an equally awful idea. We should instead not have a single day to vote and allow people to cast their votes over the course of a week or so, wit

Vote by mail is an equally awful idea. We should instead not have a single day to vote and allow people to cast their votes over the course of a week or so, with legislation for employers to give employees at least one day off to vote. Voting in person is the most fool-proof way of maintaining some sense of democracy.

HelloMcFly 5y ago
> Vote by mail is an equally awful idea. Based on what evidence, exactly? We don't have to argue hypotheticals here - it's been working great across multiple states for many years. > We should instead not have a single day to vote and allow people to cast their votes over the course of a week or so, with legislation for employers to give employees at least one day off to vote. Love all of these ideas too.
- throwntoday 5y ago
  There should be no doubt in anyones mind regarding the validity of results. Things like a national voter ID, and being in person except for the most extreme circumstances where someone cannot physically be there, ensures that. It's been working great most of the time but it should be a system that always works. We don't need to speak hypotheticals, the news is fraught with articles about people not receiving their ballots, being told they already voted by mail when they go in person, people double voting, voting in someone elses name, etc.
  - ddingus 5y ago
    Vote By Mail always works. Oregon has decades now, and it beats every other election method by every metric you can name. All it takes is a reasonable implementation, which Oregon did and has exported to other States who all have performed. The stuff you are talking about is last minute pandemic triggered fuckery and is not representative at all. There are great answers to every exception you put here. Want to vote in person? Go to an elections office and do that. Did not get a ballot? Same deal, and there is ample time available. Does not land on a single day. Were you coerced? Visit an elections office, get your vote sorted, report them, and they could end up in jail. Worried about mailing it in? Don't. You can use a collections box, or hand deliver. Did it count? Go online to see status, ballot received, votes will count. Go to an elections office to fix or recast ballot. Are you registered? Check online, register online, done. Or do in person. Auto registration happens for all citizens at the DMV. This had to ramp up, and a citizenship check had to get done, but all the people are done and we are just managing the usual churn. Worried about turnout? Oregon has great metrics. People have a couple weeks to get their votes cast and turned in somehow. Want to cast the right votes? No screens, no pressure, check your voter guide, research, check them off one by one at your leisure. Worried about process? The ballots have a chain of custody, can be hauled into court, and have for manual counts. Audits are performed against the optical scan machines. Physical voter intent records mean they can always be counted, checked, litigated, whatever the process demands. I can tell you we vote better and more often, even doing the little elections that happen because it is easy and robust. No vote challengers bullying people at the polls. No bullshit voter roll garbage. Everyone checks well in advance of elections. Anyone needing their record updated, party changed, whatever gets it quick and easy and one can call real people too. Almost nobody does, but there are people to call. Need help voting? Yup. Got that too. I did it a year or two for fun. You sign up and help voters however they need it. Can't see, can't read, whatever. A National ID does not get us there. The good stuff that makes elections run well happen at the State levels and below. Those are where all the trouble is. We have problem States. Those people there need to get behind something and lean on it, until their State runs better. Many States that do VBM will do what Oregon does and that is the Secretary of State is available to advise and share everything. There is no need for secrets.
    - throwntoday 5y ago
      I'm sorry I'm not going to read your essay. I'll respond to your first point about "pandemic triggered fuckery" by pointing out that the things I mentioned have been occuring for decades. I understand you're proud of Oregon but voting by mail will never be more secure than voting in person. There is no way to verify the identity of who actually mailed the ballot. In person someones identity and eligibility can be verified.
      - ddingus 5y ago
        Decades? With Vote By Mail? Where? And I am completely sincere. The pandemic efforts were a mess. Rushed, among other things. As for identity and eligibility, it is clear you have not actually taken the time to understand much of this as it has been done, and tested, for years. Non issue. I have been active in voting advocacy and activism since the late 90's. Have been cited in policy papers a few times related to the inherent untrustworthy nature of all known electronic voting systems that do not personally identify voters. In person voting is great! We do need to clean up obvious manipulations in some States, but if that is the decision, I am fine with it because it works. VBM also works, and like in person, some places could use a clean up pass. Where electronic voting is being considered, I always make sure VBM and the Oregon implementation are a part of the discussion because a clear move to change without it means electronic voting gets in easily. South Carolina has not known who won an election there for a long time, over a decade due to the use of paperless touch screen voting. They recently went to paper, but still have a whole lot of problems. Frankly, the strongest VBM argument is the well distributed votes cast making it impossible to bias with lack of machines and polls. There are no 8 hour voting queues in poor districts, for just one very notable metric in favor. I will end with the stats disproving your assertion. Like I said, name a metric and VBM outperforms consistently. In theory, I will not disagree with you. In real world outcomes, the US currently and largely fails the Carter Standards, always where electronic voting is in use, and a lot of the time where in person voting is used. And those failures boil down to shady voter roll tactics, caging, challenges at polling places and discrimination in both the number and accessibility of polling sites. But hey! So long as you aren't an electronic voting advocate, it is all good with me. Either, implemented well can execute democracy. And they coexist. Easy peasy. VBM will continue to garner share as more people vote using by mail options that exist today. Early and absentee mainly. They spread the word nicely enough.
duped 5y ago
To your second point, this is already the case
ddingus 5y ago
You should review how Oregon implemented it. Passes the Carter standards, and has been time tested, production proven here. I am fine with in person, however doing that actually performs worse given the mess most States have implemented.
ddingus 5y ago
And by the way, what does some sense of democracy mean? Really curious about you're thinking there.

HelloMcFly 5y ago

> Vote by mail is an equally awful idea. Based on what evidence, exactly? We don't have to argue hypotheticals here - it's been working great across multiple states for many years. > We should instead not have a single day to vote and allow people to cast their votes over the course of a week or so, with legislation for employers to give employees at least one day off to vote. Love all of these ideas too.

throwntoday 5y ago
There should be no doubt in anyones mind regarding the validity of results. Things like a national voter ID, and being in person except for the most extreme circumstances where someone cannot physically be there, ensures that. It's been working great most of the time but it should be a system that always works. We don't need to speak hypotheticals, the news is fraught with articles about people not receiving their ballots, being told they already voted by mail when they go in person, people double voting, voting in someone elses name, etc.
- ddingus 5y ago
  Vote By Mail always works. Oregon has decades now, and it beats every other election method by every metric you can name. All it takes is a reasonable implementation, which Oregon did and has exported to other States who all have performed. The stuff you are talking about is last minute pandemic triggered fuckery and is not representative at all. There are great answers to every exception you put here. Want to vote in person? Go to an elections office and do that. Did not get a ballot? Same deal, and there is ample time available. Does not land on a single day. Were you coerced? Visit an elections office, get your vote sorted, report them, and they could end up in jail. Worried about mailing it in? Don't. You can use a collections box, or hand deliver. Did it count? Go online to see status, ballot received, votes will count. Go to an elections office to fix or recast ballot. Are you registered? Check online, register online, done. Or do in person. Auto registration happens for all citizens at the DMV. This had to ramp up, and a citizenship check had to get done, but all the people are done and we are just managing the usual churn. Worried about turnout? Oregon has great metrics. People have a couple weeks to get their votes cast and turned in somehow. Want to cast the right votes? No screens, no pressure, check your voter guide, research, check them off one by one at your leisure. Worried about process? The ballots have a chain of custody, can be hauled into court, and have for manual counts. Audits are performed against the optical scan machines. Physical voter intent records mean they can always be counted, checked, litigated, whatever the process demands. I can tell you we vote better and more often, even doing the little elections that happen because it is easy and robust. No vote challengers bullying people at the polls. No bullshit voter roll garbage. Everyone checks well in advance of elections. Anyone needing their record updated, party changed, whatever gets it quick and easy and one can call real people too. Almost nobody does, but there are people to call. Need help voting? Yup. Got that too. I did it a year or two for fun. You sign up and help voters however they need it. Can't see, can't read, whatever. A National ID does not get us there. The good stuff that makes elections run well happen at the State levels and below. Those are where all the trouble is. We have problem States. Those people there need to get behind something and lean on it, until their State runs better. Many States that do VBM will do what Oregon does and that is the Secretary of State is available to advise and share everything. There is no need for secrets.
  - throwntoday 5y ago
    I'm sorry I'm not going to read your essay. I'll respond to your first point about "pandemic triggered fuckery" by pointing out that the things I mentioned have been occuring for decades. I understand you're proud of Oregon but voting by mail will never be more secure than voting in person. There is no way to verify the identity of who actually mailed the ballot. In person someones identity and eligibility can be verified.
    - ddingus 5y ago
      Decades? With Vote By Mail? Where? And I am completely sincere. The pandemic efforts were a mess. Rushed, among other things. As for identity and eligibility, it is clear you have not actually taken the time to understand much of this as it has been done, and tested, for years. Non issue. I have been active in voting advocacy and activism since the late 90's. Have been cited in policy papers a few times related to the inherent untrustworthy nature of all known electronic voting systems that do not personally identify voters. In person voting is great! We do need to clean up obvious manipulations in some States, but if that is the decision, I am fine with it because it works. VBM also works, and like in person, some places could use a clean up pass. Where electronic voting is being considered, I always make sure VBM and the Oregon implementation are a part of the discussion because a clear move to change without it means electronic voting gets in easily. South Carolina has not known who won an election there for a long time, over a decade due to the use of paperless touch screen voting. They recently went to paper, but still have a whole lot of problems. Frankly, the strongest VBM argument is the well distributed votes cast making it impossible to bias with lack of machines and polls. There are no 8 hour voting queues in poor districts, for just one very notable metric in favor. I will end with the stats disproving your assertion. Like I said, name a metric and VBM outperforms consistently. In theory, I will not disagree with you. In real world outcomes, the US currently and largely fails the Carter Standards, always where electronic voting is in use, and a lot of the time where in person voting is used. And those failures boil down to shady voter roll tactics, caging, challenges at polling places and discrimination in both the number and accessibility of polling sites. But hey! So long as you aren't an electronic voting advocate, it is all good with me. Either, implemented well can execute democracy. And they coexist. Easy peasy. VBM will continue to garner share as more people vote using by mail options that exist today. Early and absentee mainly. They spread the word nicely enough.

duped 5y ago

To your second point, this is already the case

ddingus 5y ago

You should review how Oregon implemented it. Passes the Carter standards, and has been time tested, production proven here. I am fine with in person, however doing that actually performs worse given the mess most States have implemented.

ddingus 5y ago

And by the way, what does some sense of democracy mean? Really curious about you're thinking there.