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I tried to run an open source community on XMPP at around the same time and found it equally crap. The XML schema felt bloated (baring in mind a lot of people

I tried to run an open source community on XMPP at around the same time and found it equally crap. The XML schema felt bloated (baring in mind a lot of people were still on dial up, and later the data caps of early feature/smart phones), chat client support was rubbish, linking to other servers was non-trivial (they'd often be running extensions you weren't. In fact the whole extension system was broken). And IIRC the leading XMPP server was written in Haskell and the only way to configure it was to edit the source. It was just a horrible experience all round. I had Skype, MSN, AOL IM, IRC, and another (possibly IRQ?) all linked together -- most of which are proprietary -- under one server and the only protocol I couldn't get working properly was XMPP. Which really says a lot about the state of XMPP at that time. Maybe things have improved. But now that Google Talk, Facebook Messenger and others don't use XMPP any more, there is even less reason to bother trying.

topdancing 5y ago
The only other reference I can find to a Haskell XMPP server is your other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27297137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27297137 Suffice to say; go and download a modern client like conversations.im and install ejabberd.im on a machine somewhere (or just use a throwaway account on a public server). The ecosystem has significantly improved since you last tried it... 15-20 years ago?
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  I'd already answered why I haven't > Maybe things have improved. But now that Google Talk, Facebook Messenger and others don't use XMPP any more, there is even less reason to bother trying. There's no shortage of chat protocols out there. As far as I'm concerned XMPP had it's chance and failed to deliver. While I'm not a fan of NIH (not invented here) syndrome, I'm even less of a fan of polishing a turd, because that's what leads us to monstrosities like STARTTLS, FTPES and so on and so forth.
  - topdancing 5y ago
    I saw that, and it's simply a ridiculous and narrow minded viewpoint (even more so giving you're judging on purely historical data). I myself have rediscovered XMPP in the past two years (whilst using other tools like Matrix for other roles). The experience has revolutionized the way I view chats apps and even I host my own server on my own bare metal. The thing quite simply flies and is rock solid. I've also seen multihour WhatsApp and Signal outages go by whereas my friends and I have kept chatting on my reliable server. Never had an issue with STARTTLS. XMPP has silently evolved with the times and is far better than ever and should simply be the go to if you want to have control over your own comms.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
      > I saw that, and it's simply a ridiculous and narrow minded viewpoint No need to be abusive. And lets not forget I'm basing my views on technical arguments, which is the opposite of being narrow minded. If you want to convince me that XMPP is worth trying then you need to provide me with technical reasons why I should. > I myself have rediscovered XMPP in the past two years (whilst using other tools like Matrix for other roles). The experience has revolutionized the way I view chats apps and even I host my own server on my own bare metal. Good for you. I wasn't suggesting nobody should use it though. I was only answering why I wouldn't be investing any more of my own finite amount of free time on it. That doesn't make me narrow minded. That just makes me busy enough that I need to make trade offs with my time. > The thing quite simply flies and is rock solid. I've also seen multihour WhatsApp and Signal outages go by whereas my friends and I have kept chatting on my reliable server. You can't compare a personal chat server for friends with a service with multi-national infrastructure used by millions. Problems grow exponentially with scale. > Never had an issue with STARTTLS. Then you've not spent enough time working with SMTP. :) But my point wasn't that STARTTLS sucks (though it does) but rather that STARTTLS should have been a warning sign that we need to abandon SMTP for something better. > XMPP has silently evolved with the times and is far better than ever and should simply be the go to if you want to have control over your own comms. Maybe but I haven't yet heard what any of these improvements are from you though. You've talked about how XMPP makes you feel, you've talked about how my previous post made you feel, but you've not actually talked about XMPP itself. For a technical conversation your reply lacked a lot of detail about the tech and a lot of abuse towards the person you're trying to persuade.

topdancing 5y ago

The only other reference I can find to a Haskell XMPP server is your other comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27297137 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27297137 Suffice to say; go and download a modern client like conversations.im and install ejabberd.im on a machine somewhere (or just use a throwaway account on a public server). The ecosystem has significantly improved since you last tried it... 15-20 years ago?

hnlmorg 5y ago
I'd already answered why I haven't > Maybe things have improved. But now that Google Talk, Facebook Messenger and others don't use XMPP any more, there is even less reason to bother trying. There's no shortage of chat protocols out there. As far as I'm concerned XMPP had it's chance and failed to deliver. While I'm not a fan of NIH (not invented here) syndrome, I'm even less of a fan of polishing a turd, because that's what leads us to monstrosities like STARTTLS, FTPES and so on and so forth.
- topdancing 5y ago
  I saw that, and it's simply a ridiculous and narrow minded viewpoint (even more so giving you're judging on purely historical data). I myself have rediscovered XMPP in the past two years (whilst using other tools like Matrix for other roles). The experience has revolutionized the way I view chats apps and even I host my own server on my own bare metal. The thing quite simply flies and is rock solid. I've also seen multihour WhatsApp and Signal outages go by whereas my friends and I have kept chatting on my reliable server. Never had an issue with STARTTLS. XMPP has silently evolved with the times and is far better than ever and should simply be the go to if you want to have control over your own comms.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    > I saw that, and it's simply a ridiculous and narrow minded viewpoint No need to be abusive. And lets not forget I'm basing my views on technical arguments, which is the opposite of being narrow minded. If you want to convince me that XMPP is worth trying then you need to provide me with technical reasons why I should. > I myself have rediscovered XMPP in the past two years (whilst using other tools like Matrix for other roles). The experience has revolutionized the way I view chats apps and even I host my own server on my own bare metal. Good for you. I wasn't suggesting nobody should use it though. I was only answering why I wouldn't be investing any more of my own finite amount of free time on it. That doesn't make me narrow minded. That just makes me busy enough that I need to make trade offs with my time. > The thing quite simply flies and is rock solid. I've also seen multihour WhatsApp and Signal outages go by whereas my friends and I have kept chatting on my reliable server. You can't compare a personal chat server for friends with a service with multi-national infrastructure used by millions. Problems grow exponentially with scale. > Never had an issue with STARTTLS. Then you've not spent enough time working with SMTP. :) But my point wasn't that STARTTLS sucks (though it does) but rather that STARTTLS should have been a warning sign that we need to abandon SMTP for something better. > XMPP has silently evolved with the times and is far better than ever and should simply be the go to if you want to have control over your own comms. Maybe but I haven't yet heard what any of these improvements are from you though. You've talked about how XMPP makes you feel, you've talked about how my previous post made you feel, but you've not actually talked about XMPP itself. For a technical conversation your reply lacked a lot of detail about the tech and a lot of abuse towards the person you're trying to persuade.