4 ms·

But, what is, if not php? Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising?

guitarbill 5y ago
If you could predict the future, it'd be easy. And you can pretty much learn any language. The question is who's hiring/where will you work, and what will you work on? In my area, there aren't many PHP shops. So it could be Wordpress or Facebook/Meta. PHP might be long-lived, but if you have to relocate to find a PHP job, does that help? Same with e.g. COBOL, Sharepoint, etc. And to be fair, what's rising has that problem outside tech centres. Something popular like Python is generally a "better" investment, covers more bases.
eyelidlessness 5y ago
I can’t tell if you’re arguing for PHP or against COBOL. I kid, but a lot of the other languages/ecosystems people will consider investing in are at least as old and evolving right alongside PHP. Many of them with very similar evolutions.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  Ya that's basically what I was getting at. Not about COBOL, but about others that are similarly long lasting in the market, dynamically typed, and general purpose.
anm89 5y ago
But what is, if not Visual Basic? Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising? But what is, if not Motorola 68000 Assembly? Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising? Pointing out that there is not absolute certainty about what is the top choice for a better idea does not make php, or visual basic, or 68000 worth spending your time on in 2021.
- anm89 5y ago
  Fine: python, ruby, go, rust, elixir, c, java, javascript, plenty more. Pick whatever you want. Just don't pick a language that is known to be on it's last legs.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    Ya, but PHP is actually still being used in a lot of agencies and in certain types of work. Far more than elixer and rust, probably just below ruby. Also I wasn't pointing out what you say, you're reading into it a bit. I haven't used PHP in a long ass time. But it seems like not a bad choice for certain markets, at least as much as Python and Ruby imo
    - anm89 5y ago
      Compare what the PHP jobs pay or the career path they put you on compared to elixir or ruby. Not even the same ball park. Not even the same sport.
      - jhgb 5y ago
        > Compare what the PHP jobs pay Where? At Facebook? Or somewhere else?
        anm89 5y ago
        yes, with the sole exception of facebook. If you really believe people are going out and learning php just to get jobs at faceboook I've got a bridge to sell you.
        joelbluminator 5y ago
        Hack isn't PHP anymore...
      - monkey_monkey 5y ago
        I bill £650 a day for 'PHP development'. What is this out of the park career path I'd have had choosing ruby? Can you share some more details? Almost the best advice I can give to a developer is stop being fixated on language, and start being fixated on how to solve business problems, on communicating coherently (and like a human being), and being able to quickly grok complexity. The language you program in is almost the least important part of the offer (as long as you're competent in it)
skinnyarms 5y ago
Python, JavaScript, Java, C# have all had great longevity, and much more popular, and can do anything that you can do w/ PHP and a whole lot more. Encouraging new programmers to learn PHP is cruel.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  Encouraging new programmers to learn Java isn't cruel? "Son, today is the first day of a long journey into enterprise software development. Yay" It is cruel, and something Universities have been doing forever.
  - skinnyarms 5y ago
    You prefer customizing wordpress?
- dragontamer 5y ago
  I'm still seeing shared hosts offer PHP everywhere at very cheap prices. That's not true for Java or C#.
  - lmm 5y ago
    Java and C# are not website-first languages and have never been popular on webhosts. They're still very widely used, maybe even growing; certainly I'd bet that both have a better growth rate than PHP at the moment.
vegai_ 5y ago
If you have to learn a new language for some reason and you don't know what to pick, go for something that has things you've never done before. Perhaps consult TIOBE for extra data points if you value current popularity. Some popular choices in this bubble seem to be: - clojure - common lisp for some reason - php is mentioned often here, also not sure why - rust - swift if you're into ios/apple, kotlin if you're into android - typescript
solraph 5y ago
It depends on what you want to do. The problem is that PHP is hyper-optimised for serving up HTTP. That was great in the 2000s when the web was eating the world and the other options were Java, Python, and Perl, but is less useful in the current climate where there's so many more platforms and web development requires javascript. By learning PHP, you are effectively locking yourself into the narrow niche of backend web development (ask me how I know!), whereas other languages have much broader target platform appeal. As an example, the obvious competitor to PHP of Javascript already beats PHP by also providing backend web services, but also has support from AWS lambda, GCP Cloud functions, and even the somewhat esoteric embedded javascript for micro-controllers options. > Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising? Coming back to your original question - I think it's both. Depending on what you wanted to do, I'd pick Javascript (see above), then depending on what else you wanted to do, one of Golang, Python, C#, or Kotlin.
- FranOntanaya 5y ago
  PHP pays my bills. I don't use it for web backends, it runs automations for a number of operations that glue APIs together, as well as exporting some custom document types and sorting out workflows/data. Simplistically speaking, all I have to do is stick the path hashbang at the top of a php file, follow with the business logic and run it as a shell script. Clears any urgent ad-hoc request within a day.
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  Best since everyone is thinking along the same lines Javascript/Python/Go developers are quickly becoming a commodity; e.g there are millions or tens of millions of developers who learn them as their 1st language (many of them are now hirable remotely). Just worth noting I think...
  - solraph 5y ago
    From brutal experience I can tell you that's also been true for PHP programmers for a long time.
    - 5y ago

If you could predict the future, it'd be easy. And you can pretty much learn any language. The question is who's hiring/where will you work, and what will you work on? In my area, there aren't many PHP shops. So it could be Wordpress or Facebook/Meta. PHP might be long-lived, but if you have to relocate to find a PHP job, does that help? Same with e.g. COBOL, Sharepoint, etc. And to be fair, what's rising has that problem outside tech centres. Something popular like Python is generally a "better" investment, covers more bases.

eyelidlessness 5y ago

I can’t tell if you’re arguing for PHP or against COBOL. I kid, but a lot of the other languages/ecosystems people will consider investing in are at least as old and evolving right alongside PHP. Many of them with very similar evolutions.

brailsafe 5y ago
Ya that's basically what I was getting at. Not about COBOL, but about others that are similarly long lasting in the market, dynamically typed, and general purpose.

anm89 5y ago

But what is, if not Visual Basic? Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising? But what is, if not Motorola 68000 Assembly? Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising? Pointing out that there is not absolute certainty about what is the top choice for a better idea does not make php, or visual basic, or 68000 worth spending your time on in 2021.

anm89 5y ago
Fine: python, ruby, go, rust, elixir, c, java, javascript, plenty more. Pick whatever you want. Just don't pick a language that is known to be on it's last legs.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  Ya, but PHP is actually still being used in a lot of agencies and in certain types of work. Far more than elixer and rust, probably just below ruby. Also I wasn't pointing out what you say, you're reading into it a bit. I haven't used PHP in a long ass time. But it seems like not a bad choice for certain markets, at least as much as Python and Ruby imo
  - anm89 5y ago
    Compare what the PHP jobs pay or the career path they put you on compared to elixir or ruby. Not even the same ball park. Not even the same sport.
    - jhgb 5y ago
      > Compare what the PHP jobs pay Where? At Facebook? Or somewhere else?
      - anm89 5y ago
        yes, with the sole exception of facebook. If you really believe people are going out and learning php just to get jobs at faceboook I've got a bridge to sell you.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        Hack isn't PHP anymore...
    - monkey_monkey 5y ago
      I bill £650 a day for 'PHP development'. What is this out of the park career path I'd have had choosing ruby? Can you share some more details? Almost the best advice I can give to a developer is stop being fixated on language, and start being fixated on how to solve business problems, on communicating coherently (and like a human being), and being able to quickly grok complexity. The language you program in is almost the least important part of the offer (as long as you're competent in it)

skinnyarms 5y ago

Python, JavaScript, Java, C# have all had great longevity, and much more popular, and can do anything that you can do w/ PHP and a whole lot more. Encouraging new programmers to learn PHP is cruel.

brailsafe 5y ago
Encouraging new programmers to learn Java isn't cruel? "Son, today is the first day of a long journey into enterprise software development. Yay" It is cruel, and something Universities have been doing forever.
- skinnyarms 5y ago
  You prefer customizing wordpress?
dragontamer 5y ago
I'm still seeing shared hosts offer PHP everywhere at very cheap prices. That's not true for Java or C#.
- lmm 5y ago
  Java and C# are not website-first languages and have never been popular on webhosts. They're still very widely used, maybe even growing; certainly I'd bet that both have a better growth rate than PHP at the moment.

vegai_ 5y ago

If you have to learn a new language for some reason and you don't know what to pick, go for something that has things you've never done before. Perhaps consult TIOBE for extra data points if you value current popularity. Some popular choices in this bubble seem to be: - clojure - common lisp for some reason - php is mentioned often here, also not sure why - rust - swift if you're into ios/apple, kotlin if you're into android - typescript

solraph 5y ago

It depends on what you want to do. The problem is that PHP is hyper-optimised for serving up HTTP. That was great in the 2000s when the web was eating the world and the other options were Java, Python, and Perl, but is less useful in the current climate where there's so many more platforms and web development requires javascript. By learning PHP, you are effectively locking yourself into the narrow niche of backend web development (ask me how I know!), whereas other languages have much broader target platform appeal. As an example, the obvious competitor to PHP of Javascript already beats PHP by also providing backend web services, but also has support from AWS lambda, GCP Cloud functions, and even the somewhat esoteric embedded javascript for micro-controllers options. > Do you shoot for what has had longevity, or what's rising? Coming back to your original question - I think it's both. Depending on what you wanted to do, I'd pick Javascript (see above), then depending on what else you wanted to do, one of Golang, Python, C#, or Kotlin.

FranOntanaya 5y ago
PHP pays my bills. I don't use it for web backends, it runs automations for a number of operations that glue APIs together, as well as exporting some custom document types and sorting out workflows/data. Simplistically speaking, all I have to do is stick the path hashbang at the top of a php file, follow with the business logic and run it as a shell script. Clears any urgent ad-hoc request within a day.
joelbluminator 5y ago
Best since everyone is thinking along the same lines Javascript/Python/Go developers are quickly becoming a commodity; e.g there are millions or tens of millions of developers who learn them as their 1st language (many of them are now hirable remotely). Just worth noting I think...
- solraph 5y ago
  From brutal experience I can tell you that's also been true for PHP programmers for a long time.
  - 5y ago