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That's afaik a problem with pretty much any system that supports presence, even though it can be somewhat optimized potentially (where I don't know how many opt

by detaro 5y ago

That's afaik a problem with pretty much any system that supports presence, even though it can be somewhat optimized potentially (where I don't know how many options exist in XMPP, but I don't think would be fundamentally impossible to add)?

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
It seems like it would be much more efficient for the presence to be stored somewhere where clients can fetch it if needed.
- secondaryacct 5y ago
  if needed=each time presence change. So you d have an enormous graph with one node in the center refreshing presence for everyone. And end up worse.
- detaro 5y ago
  Fetch has the downside that with the usual idea of presence you want to know immediately if presence changes, so you'd be polling constantly. What could make some sense is caching server-side and allowing the subscription to be quickly enabled/disabled, so that a client could save traffic while it's not on screen etc. When it returns, it asks for the last message for each contact to be delivered from cache and the subscription to be resumed (in exchange for having to wait for the data to come in, and until then not showing the correct information).
- oofbey 5y ago
  Yeah, any kind of aggregation would help. But XMPP dictates that you "MUST" broadcast presence messages to all subscribers every time it changes. (Many open standards are very forceful in their language about such things.) Most chat systems have done away with it. Slack has it, but that's about it. For anything you use from your phone, what does it even mean?
  - georgyo 5y ago
    > Most chat systems have done away with it. Slack has it, but that's about it. Slack, Discord, Matrix, FB Messenger, Instagram all have it to name a few. The only ones that don't have it are SMS replacement apps (Whatsapp, Signal) and IRC. I for one greatly rely on presence. It very often informs if I should or should not send a message to someone.
    - detaro 5y ago
      IRC has away-status at least.
    - mulmen 5y ago
      > I for one greatly rely on presence. It very often informs if I should or should not send a message to someone. Do you have an example? I certainly don’t operate this way. I just fire off a message. The status only informs my expectation of when a reply might arrive. In the absence of a status I have no expectation of a reply. With mobile devices I still get immediate replies frequently because of notifications. So I don’t rely on status.
    - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
      In my experience away status is uninformative. It's often inaccurate - transitions too early, you can also send the message in the gap between afk and status transition. On the other hand when I'm at the keyboard, it doesn't mean I'm free for chat and can easily reply 10 minutes after I receive the message.
    - namdnay 5y ago
      + Teams, Jabber, Sametime, Hipchat, FB workplace i.e. basically every corporate chat system
  - detaro 5y ago
    oh, it's a core thing and not open for extensions changing it or being disabled? That's indeed unfortunate.
    - 5y ago

by detaro 5y ago

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago

It seems like it would be much more efficient for the presence to be stored somewhere where clients can fetch it if needed.

secondaryacct 5y ago
if needed=each time presence change. So you d have an enormous graph with one node in the center refreshing presence for everyone. And end up worse.
detaro 5y ago
Fetch has the downside that with the usual idea of presence you want to know immediately if presence changes, so you'd be polling constantly. What could make some sense is caching server-side and allowing the subscription to be quickly enabled/disabled, so that a client could save traffic while it's not on screen etc. When it returns, it asks for the last message for each contact to be delivered from cache and the subscription to be resumed (in exchange for having to wait for the data to come in, and until then not showing the correct information).
oofbey 5y ago
Yeah, any kind of aggregation would help. But XMPP dictates that you "MUST" broadcast presence messages to all subscribers every time it changes. (Many open standards are very forceful in their language about such things.) Most chat systems have done away with it. Slack has it, but that's about it. For anything you use from your phone, what does it even mean?
- georgyo 5y ago
  > Most chat systems have done away with it. Slack has it, but that's about it. Slack, Discord, Matrix, FB Messenger, Instagram all have it to name a few. The only ones that don't have it are SMS replacement apps (Whatsapp, Signal) and IRC. I for one greatly rely on presence. It very often informs if I should or should not send a message to someone.
  - detaro 5y ago
    IRC has away-status at least.
  - mulmen 5y ago
    > I for one greatly rely on presence. It very often informs if I should or should not send a message to someone. Do you have an example? I certainly don’t operate this way. I just fire off a message. The status only informs my expectation of when a reply might arrive. In the absence of a status I have no expectation of a reply. With mobile devices I still get immediate replies frequently because of notifications. So I don’t rely on status.
  - GoblinSlayer 5y ago
    In my experience away status is uninformative. It's often inaccurate - transitions too early, you can also send the message in the gap between afk and status transition. On the other hand when I'm at the keyboard, it doesn't mean I'm free for chat and can easily reply 10 minutes after I receive the message.
  - namdnay 5y ago
    + Teams, Jabber, Sametime, Hipchat, FB workplace i.e. basically every corporate chat system
- detaro 5y ago
  oh, it's a core thing and not open for extensions changing it or being disabled? That's indeed unfortunate.
  - 5y ago