7 ms·

The cynic in me thinks that this is because they've realised that the options are either a loss of history, an industry-sponsored scheme, or a legally-mandated

The cynic in me thinks that this is because they've realised that the options are either a loss of history, an industry-sponsored scheme, or a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds. Microsoft's DRM on their latest xbox is insane – they actively consider the customer hostile at every available opportunity, have essentially always-online DRM, including for physical discs [1] and have had senior architects giving talks explaining how the "only" way to make a games console is to have a physically secure enclave in a chip with a truly unique root of trust, a very strict hardware watchdog, engineered resistance to under/overvoltage or clocking techniques and literally everything, including all buses and IO, encrypted to the nines. This is clearly incompatible with recording history (and also produces lots of errors like "this game isn't ready yet" – utter tosh. New Xbox consoles require an internet connection at least once to "activate" and play games – meaning any unsold will become e-waste once the servers shut down [2]). I'm glad they're making the argument -- the preservation of our culture is hugely important, and emulation is a good way to do it, particularly if industry sponsored (I think it's a shame that, e.g. there isn't a good PS4 emulator yet) -- but there's a definite false narrative behind this. [1] https://nichegamer.com/xbox-series-x-reportedly-has-always-online-drm-for-physical-xbox-one-games-disc-drive-issues/ https://nichegamer.com/xbox-series-x-reportedly-has-always-o... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E983349p7Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E983349p7Q

chrisseaton 5y ago
> a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds Hmm... not sure I can imagine preservation of video games being high on legislature's priorities.
- azalemeth 5y ago
  In the US at least, it's not the legislators – it's the library of congress, who in 2018 allowed (under some very limited circumstances) breaking DRM to fix hardware [1]. In the UK (and I think most of the EU) there are similar national bodies to which one can apply for permission to break DRM -- e.g. in the UK there's a long and complex review process by the civil servants at the department for culture, media and sport [2]. Of course, none of these things actually break DRM. They just say that you can break DRM without getting in trouble. Who knows, in 2055 maybe my handy device at `/dev/quantum/simultaneous_annealer` will magically break five rounds of 256-bit AES or whatever Microsoft use... [1] https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/26/18027200/video-game-drm-consoles-repair-dmca-library-of-congress https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/26/18027200/video-game-drm-c... [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-protection-measures-tpms-complaints-process/guidance-on-the-technological-protection-measures-tpms-complaints-process https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-pro...
  - foota 5y ago
    In an alternate universe, far far away: "I am the library of the Senate!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtaEdpEuOyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtaEdpEuOyE) I find it amusing that this power is vested in the library of congress.
    - SomeHacker44 5y ago
      In the USA, delegation of powers to regulators is the norm. The "Library of Congress" is just another regulator here.
- gowld 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260616
hn_throwaway_69 5y ago
When Microsoft tried this in the last generation, they got totally steamrolled. Many Xbox gamers switched to Sony (myself included), heads rolled internally, and Microsoft renegged. What changed this generation? Game Pass? Maybe consumers becoming accustomed to streaming services and being held hostage by monthly fees? It's quite curious.
- xg15 5y ago
  > Maybe consumers becoming accustomed to streaming services and being held hostage by monthly fees? Sounds bleak but likely to me. Stuff got normalized.
eropple 5y ago
The DRM on the Xbox is super-comprehensive--but their own games are also all, AFAIK, coming out on Windows, and while I haven't investigated deeply it doesn't look too crazy with regards to archiving those if one is of a mind?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bick_nyers 5y ago
Also important to note, that currently Microsoft is doing backwards compatibility the best, by a very wide margin. It has been this way since the last generation, and from as far as I can tell, they don't lose any games generation to generation, whereas Sony and Nintendo always have to reinvent the wheel every single time, often resulting in less games getting ported.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Consoles are inherently flawed because they're locked. Linux PC's with Wine makes all old games playable.
  - SeanSpearo 5y ago
    I wouldn't go nearly that far. Wine allows for running of most games, and the rest are usually always online multiplayer games. Even with the ones that work usually have hitches and quirks to figure out. Linux can't even do general windows apps that well, the only reason gaming is at the point it is is because most if not everyone who'd run linux wants to play games. Making Linux out like this miracle system is blind support
    - KronisLV 5y ago
      I'd go a step further and suggest that trying to mimic a closed operating system is always going to be a somewhat unsuccessful uphill battle. Just look at how much the people over at ReactOS have been struggling for years, just to get the basics working: https://reactos.org/ https://reactos.org/ It's certainly admirable, but to me it feels like Windows and all of the closed OSes will eventually die outside of museums and give way to open systems instead, at the same time killing any hopes of running older games and such, outside of cases where they are pretty simple, there have been source code leaks or other things to make running them easier (e.g. huge cult following). For example, you can probably port over something like "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" in a feasible amount of time[1] but something like "Cyberpunk 2077" or "Grand Theft Auto V" would be way more complicated in comparison. Thus, your choices are probably limited to the following: - use open systems and say no to playing games that don't support them, out of principle or otherwise - use both open and closed systems, like in a dual boot configuration (or VM with GPU passthrough and relative mouse movement mode which is hard), for when you can't go without those games - attempt to use workarounds like Wine or Proton or whatever, but don't expect everything to work out of the box, especially with hostile DRM In the end, it feels to me that providing opposition to hostile business models is the only way forwards, even if piracy is notoriously bad in the industry and there is ample competition, so not doing DRM and even having parts of your project be open source is probably financial suicide, as evidenced by the occasional thread on /r/gamedev about someone having their game be essentially stolen and it being uploaded elsewhere and someone else getting profits from their hard work. Linked, because it's actually pretty interesting: [1] - https://github.com/iortcw/iortcw https://github.com/iortcw/iortcw
fabianhjr 5y ago
> or a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds. Well, funny you should mention it because this came out less than a month ago: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-10-28/pdf/2021-23311.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-10-28/pdf/2021-2... > Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies > [..] > 1. Computer Programs — Video Game Preservation > SPN and LCA petitioned to renew the exemption for preservation of video games for which outside server support has been discontinued. No oppositions were filed against readoption of this exemption, and Consumer Reports submitted a comment in support of the renewal petition. The petition stated that libraries, archives, and museums continue to need the exemption to preserve and curate video games in playable form. For example, the petition highlighted Georgia Tech University Library’s Computing Lab, retroTECH, which has made a significant collection of recovered video game consoles accessible for research and teaching uses pursuant to the exemption. [..] This existing exemption, as well as the above exemption pertaining to software preservation, serve as the baseline in assessing whether to recommend any expansions in Class 14.
- BrittonR 5y ago
  > Georgia Tech University https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tech https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tech
  - rthomas6 5y ago
    What's the good word??
merb 5y ago
> Microsoft's DRM on their latest xbox is insane as if it was better in flight simulator dvd edition deluxe premium whatever. that thing gave me windows 98 floppy vibes and than the windows store basically failed to play it, even on completly newly installed windows. basically I helped a customers son to install and play his 130€ game..... support was clueless, you won't make this shit up, just google https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+simulator+windows+store+starting+failed https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+simulator+windows+sto.... I mean you install the game with 10 DVD's !!!! 10 and that alone takes like over 1-2 hours. after that you NEED to keep dvd 1 inside the drive AND you of course need an internet connection and the store needs to work and and and, most often the store just fails to activate. (good news you can download it from the store and if you are lucky it will start)
BoorishBears 5y ago
I'm sorry but the DRM on consoles is to (almost) everyone's benefit. That same DRM has kept consoles from becoming a wild west for exploits and hacks. MS has the right idea, conservation should be on the creators, not a community hacking away to do what the creators could have easily...
- naikrovek 5y ago
  DRM and anti-cheat measures are different things...
  - dogma1138 5y ago
    They are and also aren’t, if you don’t allow 3rd party code to interact with the client “anti-cheat” becomes much easier. To improve responsiveness and reduce lag clients today run a lot of simulations and the servers just do basic consolidation within a given time window, server side anti cheat alone is very hard to implement without degrading the user experience on the client which is why anti cheat today is so aggressive on the client side basically looking for any possible manipulation.
  - BoorishBears 5y ago
    They are not in this context. Anyone who actually knows the state of the art (or even just knows what DRM actually is...) realizes this. I've worked as a game networking programmer on a console title and can confidently say the most reliable protection against cheaters is DRM. DRM isn't just you can't pirate it, it's: you can't modify it, you can't deeply inspect it, you can't redefine aspects of your identity (ie. hardware bans) These are things that are nightmares for Stallmanists, but this is one case where they're perfectly matched to the use case. A console is a game playing machine primarily and sold on this premise. The only time we ever saw a deviation for that was the PS3, and they were punished when they had to walk it back. Don't expect it that again... I would not buy a console without DRM. It's practically the only benefit over PC and its wild-wild west of cheating. The lengths that console players end up going to for any sort of unfair advantage are almost comical in comparison...
mountainb 5y ago
It's entirely feasible for lawyers from the companies to write out an exemptions to DRM circumventions past certain dates that outlines what you are allowed to do as it relates to the DRM with old titles. There are difficulties in this with third party licensing, which can get quite complex, going beyond content licenses (such as a Star Wars game or licenses for music tracks) but including many third party technology licenses. Those kinds of issues don't come into play as much with things like movies and other media. What Spencer is proposing makes a lot of sense but it's not really done from the perspective of rolling back DRM or sunsetting copyright protections. It's about encouraging publishers and developers to support old titles better for emulation, and making it into a business. They're not really thinking about archival considerations or opening up modding. Particularly now, with the games industry entering into a mature phase, they're mostly tapped as it relates to new ideas and are looking for ways to make more money on the back catalog.
lwansbrough 5y ago
Anyone who plays or creates online games knows the value of DRM. While it may irk you for reasons, games are designed to be fun. Playing against exploiters is not fun, and that is reality for games that don’t incorporate serious cheat mitigations. Online games are inherently transient, so the playability of the game should be the first priority, with any efforts to conserve the game taking a back seat to keeping the game fun.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  That's not DRM, that's Anti-Cheat, and those are two different things.
  - Karunamon 5y ago
    More similar than different, IMO. The goal might be different, but the effect is the same. The pertinent bit is that both treat the user as hostile.
  - Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
    The general pratice in the console space for anti cheat was to rely on the consoles inability to run modified code via DRM. A game on the PC could be over run by cheaters but have very few issues on console, until the console is broken. These days crossplay removes that secuirty blanket (After all, thats all it was, a secuirty blanket). The 360 is a nice example, until the DVD-Rom firmware mod was out there things were pretty peaceful in the online gaming space (Excluding people using external manipulation such as network manipulation or exploiting bugs in the code allowing them to get into out-of-bounds areas. Things like aim bots just wasn't a thing). Once the DRM was bypassed starting with the DVD-Rom mod people quickly found that often the only file that was checked for modifications was the .xex file that the console executed. Many games would just have their configs in scripts that could just be easily edited, burnt onto a fresh disk and the game would just happily use those edited configs because the games were pretty much client authoritative esp thanks to the peer to peer nature most games used. To get around Tilte Updates / Server side game configs people would use scripts which were still loaded off disk to change the TU/server side loaded config values back to what ever they wanted after the game had loaded/fetched them. The JTAG & Reset glitch hacks gave cheats more freedom as a) they didn't have to burn a new DVD with every change they wanted to make b) gave them even more freedom on the system to change things as they were basically "root". My point being that many console games at the time used the consoles DRM as their anti-cheat, once one was broken, so was the other.
willis936 5y ago
And yet Xbox Series is the first console in my memory to ever support homebrew applications without the need for pwning the console. Maybe I'm okay with locked down hardware as long as the manufacturer really is on my side and will forever continue to be.
- drewcoo 5y ago
  > and will forever continue to be Who needs freedom if the dictator is always benevolent?
xg15 5y ago
Could it be that MS is even planning to go one step further? They're not at all interested in preserving their own games, but they might be very interested in adding games from other companies to the XBox through the preservation clause.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

chrisseaton 5y ago

> a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds Hmm... not sure I can imagine preservation of video games being high on legislature's priorities.

azalemeth 5y ago
In the US at least, it's not the legislators – it's the library of congress, who in 2018 allowed (under some very limited circumstances) breaking DRM to fix hardware [1]. In the UK (and I think most of the EU) there are similar national bodies to which one can apply for permission to break DRM -- e.g. in the UK there's a long and complex review process by the civil servants at the department for culture, media and sport [2]. Of course, none of these things actually break DRM. They just say that you can break DRM without getting in trouble. Who knows, in 2055 maybe my handy device at `/dev/quantum/simultaneous_annealer` will magically break five rounds of 256-bit AES or whatever Microsoft use... [1] https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/26/18027200/video-game-drm-consoles-repair-dmca-library-of-congress https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/26/18027200/video-game-drm-c... [2] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-protection-measures-tpms-complaints-process/guidance-on-the-technological-protection-measures-tpms-complaints-process https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/technological-pro...
- foota 5y ago
  In an alternate universe, far far away: "I am the library of the Senate!" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtaEdpEuOyE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtaEdpEuOyE) I find it amusing that this power is vested in the library of congress.
  - SomeHacker44 5y ago
    In the USA, delegation of powers to regulators is the norm. The "Library of Congress" is just another regulator here.
gowld 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29260616

hn_throwaway_69 5y ago

When Microsoft tried this in the last generation, they got totally steamrolled. Many Xbox gamers switched to Sony (myself included), heads rolled internally, and Microsoft renegged. What changed this generation? Game Pass? Maybe consumers becoming accustomed to streaming services and being held hostage by monthly fees? It's quite curious.

xg15 5y ago
> Maybe consumers becoming accustomed to streaming services and being held hostage by monthly fees? Sounds bleak but likely to me. Stuff got normalized.

eropple 5y ago

The DRM on the Xbox is super-comprehensive--but their own games are also all, AFAIK, coming out on Windows, and while I haven't investigated deeply it doesn't look too crazy with regards to archiving those if one is of a mind?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bick_nyers 5y ago

Also important to note, that currently Microsoft is doing backwards compatibility the best, by a very wide margin. It has been this way since the last generation, and from as far as I can tell, they don't lose any games generation to generation, whereas Sony and Nintendo always have to reinvent the wheel every single time, often resulting in less games getting ported.

fartcannon 5y ago
Consoles are inherently flawed because they're locked. Linux PC's with Wine makes all old games playable.
- SeanSpearo 5y ago
  I wouldn't go nearly that far. Wine allows for running of most games, and the rest are usually always online multiplayer games. Even with the ones that work usually have hitches and quirks to figure out. Linux can't even do general windows apps that well, the only reason gaming is at the point it is is because most if not everyone who'd run linux wants to play games. Making Linux out like this miracle system is blind support
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    I'd go a step further and suggest that trying to mimic a closed operating system is always going to be a somewhat unsuccessful uphill battle. Just look at how much the people over at ReactOS have been struggling for years, just to get the basics working: https://reactos.org/ https://reactos.org/ It's certainly admirable, but to me it feels like Windows and all of the closed OSes will eventually die outside of museums and give way to open systems instead, at the same time killing any hopes of running older games and such, outside of cases where they are pretty simple, there have been source code leaks or other things to make running them easier (e.g. huge cult following). For example, you can probably port over something like "Return to Castle Wolfenstein" in a feasible amount of time[1] but something like "Cyberpunk 2077" or "Grand Theft Auto V" would be way more complicated in comparison. Thus, your choices are probably limited to the following: - use open systems and say no to playing games that don't support them, out of principle or otherwise - use both open and closed systems, like in a dual boot configuration (or VM with GPU passthrough and relative mouse movement mode which is hard), for when you can't go without those games - attempt to use workarounds like Wine or Proton or whatever, but don't expect everything to work out of the box, especially with hostile DRM In the end, it feels to me that providing opposition to hostile business models is the only way forwards, even if piracy is notoriously bad in the industry and there is ample competition, so not doing DRM and even having parts of your project be open source is probably financial suicide, as evidenced by the occasional thread on /r/gamedev about someone having their game be essentially stolen and it being uploaded elsewhere and someone else getting profits from their hard work. Linked, because it's actually pretty interesting: [1] - https://github.com/iortcw/iortcw https://github.com/iortcw/iortcw

fabianhjr 5y ago

> or a legally-mandated exception to breaking DRM for preservation grounds. Well, funny you should mention it because this came out less than a month ago: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-10-28/pdf/2021-23311.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2021-10-28/pdf/2021-2... > Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies > [..] > 1. Computer Programs — Video Game Preservation > SPN and LCA petitioned to renew the exemption for preservation of video games for which outside server support has been discontinued. No oppositions were filed against readoption of this exemption, and Consumer Reports submitted a comment in support of the renewal petition. The petition stated that libraries, archives, and museums continue to need the exemption to preserve and curate video games in playable form. For example, the petition highlighted Georgia Tech University Library’s Computing Lab, retroTECH, which has made a significant collection of recovered video game consoles accessible for research and teaching uses pursuant to the exemption. [..] This existing exemption, as well as the above exemption pertaining to software preservation, serve as the baseline in assessing whether to recommend any expansions in Class 14.

BrittonR 5y ago
> Georgia Tech University https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tech https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Tech
- rthomas6 5y ago
  What's the good word??

merb 5y ago

> Microsoft's DRM on their latest xbox is insane as if it was better in flight simulator dvd edition deluxe premium whatever. that thing gave me windows 98 floppy vibes and than the windows store basically failed to play it, even on completly newly installed windows. basically I helped a customers son to install and play his 130€ game..... support was clueless, you won't make this shit up, just google https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+simulator+windows+store+starting+failed https://www.google.com/search?q=flight+simulator+windows+sto.... I mean you install the game with 10 DVD's !!!! 10 and that alone takes like over 1-2 hours. after that you NEED to keep dvd 1 inside the drive AND you of course need an internet connection and the store needs to work and and and, most often the store just fails to activate. (good news you can download it from the store and if you are lucky it will start)

BoorishBears 5y ago

I'm sorry but the DRM on consoles is to (almost) everyone's benefit. That same DRM has kept consoles from becoming a wild west for exploits and hacks. MS has the right idea, conservation should be on the creators, not a community hacking away to do what the creators could have easily...

naikrovek 5y ago
DRM and anti-cheat measures are different things...
- dogma1138 5y ago
  They are and also aren’t, if you don’t allow 3rd party code to interact with the client “anti-cheat” becomes much easier. To improve responsiveness and reduce lag clients today run a lot of simulations and the servers just do basic consolidation within a given time window, server side anti cheat alone is very hard to implement without degrading the user experience on the client which is why anti cheat today is so aggressive on the client side basically looking for any possible manipulation.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  They are not in this context. Anyone who actually knows the state of the art (or even just knows what DRM actually is...) realizes this. I've worked as a game networking programmer on a console title and can confidently say the most reliable protection against cheaters is DRM. DRM isn't just you can't pirate it, it's: you can't modify it, you can't deeply inspect it, you can't redefine aspects of your identity (ie. hardware bans) These are things that are nightmares for Stallmanists, but this is one case where they're perfectly matched to the use case. A console is a game playing machine primarily and sold on this premise. The only time we ever saw a deviation for that was the PS3, and they were punished when they had to walk it back. Don't expect it that again... I would not buy a console without DRM. It's practically the only benefit over PC and its wild-wild west of cheating. The lengths that console players end up going to for any sort of unfair advantage are almost comical in comparison...

mountainb 5y ago

It's entirely feasible for lawyers from the companies to write out an exemptions to DRM circumventions past certain dates that outlines what you are allowed to do as it relates to the DRM with old titles. There are difficulties in this with third party licensing, which can get quite complex, going beyond content licenses (such as a Star Wars game or licenses for music tracks) but including many third party technology licenses. Those kinds of issues don't come into play as much with things like movies and other media. What Spencer is proposing makes a lot of sense but it's not really done from the perspective of rolling back DRM or sunsetting copyright protections. It's about encouraging publishers and developers to support old titles better for emulation, and making it into a business. They're not really thinking about archival considerations or opening up modding. Particularly now, with the games industry entering into a mature phase, they're mostly tapped as it relates to new ideas and are looking for ways to make more money on the back catalog.

lwansbrough 5y ago

Anyone who plays or creates online games knows the value of DRM. While it may irk you for reasons, games are designed to be fun. Playing against exploiters is not fun, and that is reality for games that don’t incorporate serious cheat mitigations. Online games are inherently transient, so the playability of the game should be the first priority, with any efforts to conserve the game taking a back seat to keeping the game fun.

t-writescode 5y ago
That's not DRM, that's Anti-Cheat, and those are two different things.
- Karunamon 5y ago
  More similar than different, IMO. The goal might be different, but the effect is the same. The pertinent bit is that both treat the user as hostile.
- Crosseye_Jack 5y ago
  The general pratice in the console space for anti cheat was to rely on the consoles inability to run modified code via DRM. A game on the PC could be over run by cheaters but have very few issues on console, until the console is broken. These days crossplay removes that secuirty blanket (After all, thats all it was, a secuirty blanket). The 360 is a nice example, until the DVD-Rom firmware mod was out there things were pretty peaceful in the online gaming space (Excluding people using external manipulation such as network manipulation or exploiting bugs in the code allowing them to get into out-of-bounds areas. Things like aim bots just wasn't a thing). Once the DRM was bypassed starting with the DVD-Rom mod people quickly found that often the only file that was checked for modifications was the .xex file that the console executed. Many games would just have their configs in scripts that could just be easily edited, burnt onto a fresh disk and the game would just happily use those edited configs because the games were pretty much client authoritative esp thanks to the peer to peer nature most games used. To get around Tilte Updates / Server side game configs people would use scripts which were still loaded off disk to change the TU/server side loaded config values back to what ever they wanted after the game had loaded/fetched them. The JTAG & Reset glitch hacks gave cheats more freedom as a) they didn't have to burn a new DVD with every change they wanted to make b) gave them even more freedom on the system to change things as they were basically "root". My point being that many console games at the time used the consoles DRM as their anti-cheat, once one was broken, so was the other.

willis936 5y ago

And yet Xbox Series is the first console in my memory to ever support homebrew applications without the need for pwning the console. Maybe I'm okay with locked down hardware as long as the manufacturer really is on my side and will forever continue to be.

drewcoo 5y ago
> and will forever continue to be Who needs freedom if the dictator is always benevolent?

xg15 5y ago

Could it be that MS is even planning to go one step further? They're not at all interested in preserving their own games, but they might be very interested in adding games from other companies to the XBox through the preservation clause.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]