25 ms·

So let me get this straight. There is an auction for a priceless (well, very expensive) item. A group is trying to raise funds to buy this item, but is not gua

So let me get this straight. There is an auction for a priceless (well, very expensive) item. A group is trying to raise funds to buy this item, but is not guaranteed to win the auction anyways. Participating in an auction while having a publicly known funding cap feels like a poor position to be in. Further, let's suppose the group wins the auction, and is now the proud owner of a copy of the Constitution. This entire end goal of this project seems dependent on finding a partner that is willing to cover all the costs associated with storage, display, security, etc of this high value item. This feels like a whole lot of "ifs" for a project trying to collection $20M.

robodobo 5y ago
*for a project that did collect $20M.
AutumnCurtain 5y ago
>Additionally, the community has expressed strong preferences for institutions that are free to the public and willing to cover the costs associated with housing the document. Had to laugh at this. I'd have a strong preference for others subsidizing my questionable decisions too.
- nrmitchi 5y ago
  I think it's more than that; "preference" aside, if you can't find a partner willing to cover the costs, how will the upkeep costs be paid for? I see 3 options: 1. They are required to raise additional funding for maintenance. I'm not sure I'd bet on them having the same interest in this project in a couple of months 2. The DAO neglects the item, and it gets irrecoverably damaged/destroyed. The ConstituationDAO has now effectively destroyed a copy of the constitution 3. They find themselves in the position of having to firesale the item in a couple of months when they're unable to cover the associated costs. I'll also add that it would be _possible_ for the DAO to have enough funding after purchasing the item to generate income/returns that can cover the associated costs. Given that their funding is public, and will be participating in an auction, I'm not sure I would bet on having a whole of of funds left over.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    I think it's very unlikely they won't be able to find some organisation to host the document. For an organisation like a museum, who already have secure climate controlled storage, and are already open to the public, it would cost next to nothing extra to keep it. Yet merely having a copy of the constitution will get many more people through the doors to buy postcards in the shop and coffee in the cafe. That will far outweigh the added costs.
    - nrmitchi 5y ago
      I'm not disagreeing that there is likely an organization out there. You lose a lot of negotiating power though when everyone knows that you are going to have a very short deadline, and don't really have an alternative.
      - solveit 5y ago
        Eh, many museums will want this, so the DAO only has no alternative if the museums all collude, which I don't see them doing.
      - londons_explore 5y ago
        Nothing stops you loaning it to a museum for a period, eg. 6 months, giving you time to choose either another place to loan it to or a permanent home. It's common for artifacts to go on 'tours' like this, so as many people as possible get a chance to view them.
- simonebrunozzi 5y ago
  Several museums would be very happy to host the constitution and just pay for the "storage" fees.
parhamn 5y ago
My favorite part is: > We intend to put The Constitution in the hands of The People. Like the US Archives aren't owned by the government of the people. Instead this will be owned by a very few ETH holders willing to participate. But this might be one of the biggest fundraisers I've seen and it probably wouldn't have happened without the crypto ecosystem. For that, I am very excited.
- casi18 5y ago
  it has previously been in a private collection, and without constitutiondao would end up in another private collection. the intention of the dao is clear, display it in a public museum with free entry. and yes, from a joke last friday to likely suceeding in less than a week! exciting. the velocity of daos is remarkable, and i think it is a just a small hint of what is to come in the future. and it is coming quick. (meanwhile i expect hn to continue talking about tulips or something :)
  - holonomically 5y ago
    Have there been any DAOs designed for long term impact that have been successful at their intended task? Is there a DAO for nuclear fusion and fission projects or anything else that has real world relevance?
    - kreeben 5y ago
      I'd like a WebSearchDAO please, that would only turn evil if everybody wanted it to.
      - holonomically 5y ago
        Cool idea but this makes too much sense for anyone in the crypto community to take it seriously. They mostly care about what gets the most likes and upvotes on Twitter and Reddit.
        5y ago
Animats 5y ago
The site has a total deposited and a "goal" number. When the total deposited passed $25 million, the goal jumped from $25 million to $30 million. When does it stop?
- sinak 5y ago
  They're fundraising for a Sotheby's auction, so I think they basically want to raise as much as they can to be able to win the auction. Apparently they were told that it would likely sell for ~$40m, with bidding starting at $20m.
  - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
    The low estimate is $15 million, so bidding will start below there. It may quickly surpass it, or it may not. I got the impression the original dao goal wasn't accounting for the fees, which are added on top of the winning bid. https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/the-constitution-of-the-united-states-sold-to-benefit-the-dorothy-tapper-goldman-foundation/the-official-edition-of-the-united-states https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/the-constitutio...
    - peter422 5y ago
      The auction will not sell for any less than the maximum amount the DAO has raised. If the DAO are heavily incentivized to bid, and you know what their max value is, somebody will bid them up. Sotheby’s is too smart not to make sure that happens. It is generally a moronic idea to raise funds for an auction like this. You will never get a good deal and your competition knows exactly what your limit is.
      - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
        I certainly have had the same thoughts, but I think it's a little different when you're up in these prices ranges and on a very high profile item. There's a lot at stake, not just for the dao, but Sotheby's as well. Not to mention the possibility the other bidders could conceivably be left holding the bag.
tyre 5y ago
It’s going to be a disaster. I hope Sotheby’s doesn’t let them bid. Either they do whatever the random people who hold tokens tell them to do—including, if you read their Discord, destroy it—or you don’t. In the latter case, everyone gets all upset that governance tokens are not real things and blockchain is, once again, not in fact “code is law”.
- holonomically 5y ago
  Main issue with the crypto community is they throw around words like "trust-less" without truly understanding what they mean so it's very hard to take them seriously. It is impossible to have markets and governments without trust. At some point digital transactions must be reified as real world actions and that means the people carrying out the actions must be trusted to do what is expected of them. There is no system that doesn't assume trust somewhere, the trusted base can be made smaller but it can never be entirely removed.
  - okwubodu 5y ago
    Trustless in the context of crypto means you don’t have to put your trust (if you don’t want to) a 3rd party because they don’t have the option to not do the right thing. It gives you the ability to know exactly what you will lose and what you will gain when you press confirm on a transaction. It doesn’t matter whether or not you trust the other person because they simply don’t have the ability to do anything other than the code–that you both can verify–says. (This isn’t to say that there are no bad actors, but that a wolf in sheep’s clothing would be forced to act like the sheep it presented itself as.)
    - holonomically 5y ago
      I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The real world requires trust. It doesn't matter what the code says. If I buy something then I have to trust that it will be delivered in some way by passing through trusted 3rd parties like FedEx. There is no way around trust. As soon as the digital makes contact with reality all mathematical guarantees of being "trust-less" are no longer relevant.
kelnos 5y ago
> This feels like a whole lot of "ifs" for a project trying to collection $20M. Also I feel like one of the only thirteen surviving copies of the US Constitution will sell for a lot more than $20M.

robodobo 5y ago

*for a project that did collect $20M.

AutumnCurtain 5y ago

>Additionally, the community has expressed strong preferences for institutions that are free to the public and willing to cover the costs associated with housing the document. Had to laugh at this. I'd have a strong preference for others subsidizing my questionable decisions too.

nrmitchi 5y ago
I think it's more than that; "preference" aside, if you can't find a partner willing to cover the costs, how will the upkeep costs be paid for? I see 3 options: 1. They are required to raise additional funding for maintenance. I'm not sure I'd bet on them having the same interest in this project in a couple of months 2. The DAO neglects the item, and it gets irrecoverably damaged/destroyed. The ConstituationDAO has now effectively destroyed a copy of the constitution 3. They find themselves in the position of having to firesale the item in a couple of months when they're unable to cover the associated costs. I'll also add that it would be _possible_ for the DAO to have enough funding after purchasing the item to generate income/returns that can cover the associated costs. Given that their funding is public, and will be participating in an auction, I'm not sure I would bet on having a whole of of funds left over.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  I think it's very unlikely they won't be able to find some organisation to host the document. For an organisation like a museum, who already have secure climate controlled storage, and are already open to the public, it would cost next to nothing extra to keep it. Yet merely having a copy of the constitution will get many more people through the doors to buy postcards in the shop and coffee in the cafe. That will far outweigh the added costs.
  - nrmitchi 5y ago
    I'm not disagreeing that there is likely an organization out there. You lose a lot of negotiating power though when everyone knows that you are going to have a very short deadline, and don't really have an alternative.
    - solveit 5y ago
      Eh, many museums will want this, so the DAO only has no alternative if the museums all collude, which I don't see them doing.
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      Nothing stops you loaning it to a museum for a period, eg. 6 months, giving you time to choose either another place to loan it to or a permanent home. It's common for artifacts to go on 'tours' like this, so as many people as possible get a chance to view them.
simonebrunozzi 5y ago
Several museums would be very happy to host the constitution and just pay for the "storage" fees.

parhamn 5y ago

My favorite part is: > We intend to put The Constitution in the hands of The People. Like the US Archives aren't owned by the government of the people. Instead this will be owned by a very few ETH holders willing to participate. But this might be one of the biggest fundraisers I've seen and it probably wouldn't have happened without the crypto ecosystem. For that, I am very excited.

casi18 5y ago
it has previously been in a private collection, and without constitutiondao would end up in another private collection. the intention of the dao is clear, display it in a public museum with free entry. and yes, from a joke last friday to likely suceeding in less than a week! exciting. the velocity of daos is remarkable, and i think it is a just a small hint of what is to come in the future. and it is coming quick. (meanwhile i expect hn to continue talking about tulips or something :)
- holonomically 5y ago
  Have there been any DAOs designed for long term impact that have been successful at their intended task? Is there a DAO for nuclear fusion and fission projects or anything else that has real world relevance?
  - kreeben 5y ago
    I'd like a WebSearchDAO please, that would only turn evil if everybody wanted it to.
    - holonomically 5y ago
      Cool idea but this makes too much sense for anyone in the crypto community to take it seriously. They mostly care about what gets the most likes and upvotes on Twitter and Reddit.
      - 5y ago

Animats 5y ago

The site has a total deposited and a "goal" number. When the total deposited passed $25 million, the goal jumped from $25 million to $30 million. When does it stop?

sinak 5y ago
They're fundraising for a Sotheby's auction, so I think they basically want to raise as much as they can to be able to win the auction. Apparently they were told that it would likely sell for ~$40m, with bidding starting at $20m.
- TigeriusKirk 5y ago
  The low estimate is $15 million, so bidding will start below there. It may quickly surpass it, or it may not. I got the impression the original dao goal wasn't accounting for the fees, which are added on top of the winning bid. https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/the-constitution-of-the-united-states-sold-to-benefit-the-dorothy-tapper-goldman-foundation/the-official-edition-of-the-united-states https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2021/the-constitutio...
  - peter422 5y ago
    The auction will not sell for any less than the maximum amount the DAO has raised. If the DAO are heavily incentivized to bid, and you know what their max value is, somebody will bid them up. Sotheby’s is too smart not to make sure that happens. It is generally a moronic idea to raise funds for an auction like this. You will never get a good deal and your competition knows exactly what your limit is.
    - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
      I certainly have had the same thoughts, but I think it's a little different when you're up in these prices ranges and on a very high profile item. There's a lot at stake, not just for the dao, but Sotheby's as well. Not to mention the possibility the other bidders could conceivably be left holding the bag.

tyre 5y ago

It’s going to be a disaster. I hope Sotheby’s doesn’t let them bid. Either they do whatever the random people who hold tokens tell them to do—including, if you read their Discord, destroy it—or you don’t. In the latter case, everyone gets all upset that governance tokens are not real things and blockchain is, once again, not in fact “code is law”.

holonomically 5y ago
Main issue with the crypto community is they throw around words like "trust-less" without truly understanding what they mean so it's very hard to take them seriously. It is impossible to have markets and governments without trust. At some point digital transactions must be reified as real world actions and that means the people carrying out the actions must be trusted to do what is expected of them. There is no system that doesn't assume trust somewhere, the trusted base can be made smaller but it can never be entirely removed.
- okwubodu 5y ago
  Trustless in the context of crypto means you don’t have to put your trust (if you don’t want to) a 3rd party because they don’t have the option to not do the right thing. It gives you the ability to know exactly what you will lose and what you will gain when you press confirm on a transaction. It doesn’t matter whether or not you trust the other person because they simply don’t have the ability to do anything other than the code–that you both can verify–says. (This isn’t to say that there are no bad actors, but that a wolf in sheep’s clothing would be forced to act like the sheep it presented itself as.)
  - holonomically 5y ago
    I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The real world requires trust. It doesn't matter what the code says. If I buy something then I have to trust that it will be delivered in some way by passing through trusted 3rd parties like FedEx. There is no way around trust. As soon as the digital makes contact with reality all mathematical guarantees of being "trust-less" are no longer relevant.

kelnos 5y ago

> This feels like a whole lot of "ifs" for a project trying to collection $20M. Also I feel like one of the only thirteen surviving copies of the US Constitution will sell for a lot more than $20M.