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1000% agree, so much so that I started such a project and wrote a blog post about this very problem[1] and launched what has become a full-time project to solve

1000% agree, so much so that I started such a project and wrote a blog post about this very problem[1] and launched what has become a full-time project to solve it (Snikket). These days I believe very much in identifying and serving a specific set of users. XMPP is just a protocol, it has lots of potential applications, but it's nothing unless you channel that into a tangible usable product for real people. This epiphany came to me after more than 10 years of working on XMPP as a server developer and spending time promoting open communication protocols to people. It was soul-crushing that at the end of a day I would still see my own family communicating with each other via WhatsApp. Six months after the initial Snikket prototypes, and after a little user testing, I migrated my family over to XMPP by sending a simple invitation link (the start of the Snikket onboarding journey). They're now using it daily and totally happy with it. I'm beginning to hear similar stories from others who have repeated this with their own families/groups and their own Snikket setups. All it took was to look at the issue through the eyes of "normal people" for a moment, and it changed my approach (and success rate) significantly. [1]: https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/ https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/

tsherr 5y ago
This is very cool. I moved our family to signal, but this looks better. I'll be trying it out for sure.
derac 5y ago
This is great. I think it would benefit from having a large catch-all public server ehich people could use if they don't want to set up their own, shile retaining the choice to do so. That would improve the UX substantially, I think, although the cost may be too high.
- MattJ100 5y ago
  Indeed, https://quicksy.im/ https://quicksy.im/ follows this approach, it's as trivial as it can be. My focus with Snikket is on making it as easy as possible for people to run their own server (hosted or self-hosted), and to avoid a repeat of the Google situation where 99% of the network was controlled by a single (volatile when it comes to messaging apps) entity. Snikket may not be for everyone, but that's kind of the point of XMPP. Snikket users can text and call Quicksy users with E2EE, and vice-versa, despite using two different systems.
anon9001 5y ago
I badly want to move off of discord, but I need something that follows the "voice channels" concept from discord (which comes from teamspeak/ventrilo/mumble). What do you think the best path is to that feature? Element seemed to have audio calls already, but not voice channels. Also basic features like push to talk and noise thresholds are key.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  Who's going to proxy that voice? That's not a free service. Discord burns investor's money, but most services can't afford that.
  - woojoo666 5y ago
    Afaik Matrix uses whatever homeserver you are using to proxy the voice. Video calls as well
grishka 5y ago
The fun part about WhatsApp is that it uses XMPP internally. It's just not federated, and probably modified to the point that it's not compatible with anything else. But I do remember seeing JIDs in logs while reverse engineering it several years ago.
AndyMcConachie 5y ago
Thank you for making Snikket! I run my own XMPP server for friends and family and train people to use Adium. I just downloaded Snikket and it looks so much nicer.
crtasm 5y ago
looks great, does it support OTR?
- topdancing 5y ago
  It doesn't, OTR was deprecated by OMEMO a while back.
  - crtasm 5y ago
    Pidgin doesn't have a non-"highly experimental" OMEMO plugin yet and Gajim has major issues e.g. changes to privacy preferences silently failing. A lot of people I know are still on OTR.
    - topdancing 5y ago
      Pidgin is quite simply a terrible XMPP client with none of the features of modern XMPP. I haven't had any issues with OMEMO with my contacts on Gajim.
      - crtasm 5y ago
        Well I can believe that Gajim+OMEMO works, but I didn't trust it to setup an account after noticing the undesirable defaults in preferences->advanced->privacy then realising that unticking them had no effect (they're reticked when I open the preferences again). Do you know any alternative Linux clients?
        topdancing 5y ago
        I use dino.im and kaidan.im also exists (though they implemented a newer version of the spec which isn't backwards compatible: https://invent.kde.org/network/kaidan/-/issues/254 https://invent.kde.org/network/kaidan/-/issues/254 ).
        crtasm 5y ago

tsherr 5y ago

This is very cool. I moved our family to signal, but this looks better. I'll be trying it out for sure.

derac 5y ago

This is great. I think it would benefit from having a large catch-all public server ehich people could use if they don't want to set up their own, shile retaining the choice to do so. That would improve the UX substantially, I think, although the cost may be too high.

MattJ100 5y ago
Indeed, https://quicksy.im/ https://quicksy.im/ follows this approach, it's as trivial as it can be. My focus with Snikket is on making it as easy as possible for people to run their own server (hosted or self-hosted), and to avoid a repeat of the Google situation where 99% of the network was controlled by a single (volatile when it comes to messaging apps) entity. Snikket may not be for everyone, but that's kind of the point of XMPP. Snikket users can text and call Quicksy users with E2EE, and vice-versa, despite using two different systems.

anon9001 5y ago

I badly want to move off of discord, but I need something that follows the "voice channels" concept from discord (which comes from teamspeak/ventrilo/mumble). What do you think the best path is to that feature? Element seemed to have audio calls already, but not voice channels. Also basic features like push to talk and noise thresholds are key.

vbezhenar 5y ago
Who's going to proxy that voice? That's not a free service. Discord burns investor's money, but most services can't afford that.
- woojoo666 5y ago
  Afaik Matrix uses whatever homeserver you are using to proxy the voice. Video calls as well

grishka 5y ago

The fun part about WhatsApp is that it uses XMPP internally. It's just not federated, and probably modified to the point that it's not compatible with anything else. But I do remember seeing JIDs in logs while reverse engineering it several years ago.

AndyMcConachie 5y ago

Thank you for making Snikket! I run my own XMPP server for friends and family and train people to use Adium. I just downloaded Snikket and it looks so much nicer.

crtasm 5y ago

looks great, does it support OTR?

topdancing 5y ago
It doesn't, OTR was deprecated by OMEMO a while back.
- crtasm 5y ago
  Pidgin doesn't have a non-"highly experimental" OMEMO plugin yet and Gajim has major issues e.g. changes to privacy preferences silently failing. A lot of people I know are still on OTR.
  - topdancing 5y ago
    Pidgin is quite simply a terrible XMPP client with none of the features of modern XMPP. I haven't had any issues with OMEMO with my contacts on Gajim.
    - crtasm 5y ago
      Well I can believe that Gajim+OMEMO works, but I didn't trust it to setup an account after noticing the undesirable defaults in preferences->advanced->privacy then realising that unticking them had no effect (they're reticked when I open the preferences again). Do you know any alternative Linux clients?
      - topdancing 5y ago
        I use dino.im and kaidan.im also exists (though they implemented a newer version of the spec which isn't backwards compatible: https://invent.kde.org/network/kaidan/-/issues/254 https://invent.kde.org/network/kaidan/-/issues/254 ).
        crtasm 5y ago